XU9J4 rebuild specifics.
  • Help
Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Traralgon
    Posts
    649

    Default XU9J4 rebuild specifics.

    I am about ready to bolt my XU9J4 back together and have a couple of questions I hope someone with some experience in wet liner rebuilds may be able to help me with.

    1. How serious do you get cleaning down the sealing surface in the bottom of the block? What typically do you clean the bottom of the liners up with and do you use eather a sealant or lubricant on the 'O' ring prior to installation?

    2. The manual states that the head bolts should be tensioned as follows:
    Stage 1: 60Nm
    Stage 2: fully slack
    Stage 3: 20Nm
    Stage 4: +300 degrees.

    I recall someone offering an altenate torque application that has proven successful and lower stress on the studs / M11 threads in block. Can anyone confirm an alternate torque for head studs, or is it best to stick with this standard?

    3. What is the best cam belt to use. Does anyone know if Gates does a racing belt for this engine, or is the original the best bet.

    I will be looking for 8000rpm on the new engine, new springs, titanium retainers, solid lifters, big cams, vernier pulleys, forged pistons (11.8:1), steel conrods - so things will be pretty well stressed!

    This is the engine I have been looking for top flowing exhaust headers for.

    Look forward to comments.

    Advertisement

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,654

    Default

    I used the 3 stage tightening sequence as suggested by Puma Racing.

    New bolts to 25, 50 then 75 ft lbs. Apply grease to the threads & under the bolt heads.
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car up for sale soon. For details contact me on 0438 106 430.

    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,553

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post

    1. How serious do you get cleaning down the sealing surface in the bottom of the block?
    Very. Clean with thinners and use ThreeBond 1211.

    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    What typically do you clean the bottom of the liners up with and do you use eather a sealant or lubricant on the 'O' ring prior to installation?
    Grit blast around seal area of block. Repair corrosion if required. Wire brush liners. Then check liner protrusion without o-rings. Coat o-rings with a smear of ThreeBond 1211.

    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    2. The manual states that the head bolts should be tensioned as follows:
    Stage 1: 60Nm
    Stage 2: fully slack
    Stage 3: 20Nm
    Stage 4: +300 degrees.

    I recall someone offering an altenate torque application that has proven successful and lower stress on the studs / M11 threads in block. Can anyone confirm an alternate torque for head studs, or is it best to stick with this standard?
    Use the method above if you want it to stay together. If liner protrusion is marginal the other method will leak. Run a tap through to clean up threads in block and use moly on the bolts. If a thread pulls, helicoil.

    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    3. What is the best cam belt to use. Does anyone know if Gates does a racing belt for this engine, or is the original the best bet.
    OEM

    Good luck!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails XU9J4 rebuild specifics.-liner-seats.jpg  
    Last edited by PeterT; 15th February 2011 at 10:06 AM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    567

    Default

    I've never done the bottom end of an Xu9 but I have built plenty of wet sleeve motors before. Clean surfaces, particularly sealing surfaces, are the key to a strong build. If you can't get in there to clean the bottom sealing surfaces, take it to a machine shop and get them to cold dip it (it'll clean all the crust out of your oil galleries etc too.) Well worth the $80-odd.

    A dab of vaseline on your o-rings is all that's needed provided your sealing faces are dead clean. If you're re-using liners watch out for pit-marks (even tiny ones) around the base of the liners where the seal locates, otherwise it will leak. I use scotch scourers to clean the base of liners as they are non-aggressive (so it won't reduce the outside diameter of the sleeves, as a wire wheel on a bench grinder will) but will clean the old coolant/sealant scunge and build-up.

    A vernier's not good enough to measure sleeve protrusion as this dimension is critical. Best would be a depth micrometer or a depth dial indicator. Feeler gauges and a straight edge on top of the sleeve flanges will give you an idea but you have to be ultra critical.
    Kent Cams do a belt that a lot of the UK guys use on performance builds. You'll probably find a new OEM belt will be just fine though.

    8000RPM while not excessive would need a few things done. I'd definitely put ARP conrod bolts in and have your rods accurately re-sized and re-bushed, and shot-peened. I'd also use new flywheel bolts. Dynamically balancing your rotating assembly will help. Xu9 flywheels are apparently pretty light but I'd try lightening it further.

    As with any build, check crank tunnel alignment. And nip and crush on big-end bearings with flexi-gauge. Clean and re-clean all bolt holes (carby cleaner and compressed air works great) and make sure you lube threads and under bolt heads for mains, bigs, flywheel and head bolts.

    Good luck!

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    634

    Default

    I would use the standard rod bolts.

    My race motor spun a bearing due to oil surge. The rod cap and rod snapped in two and the rod bolts were still intact and able to have the nuts taken off.
    Adrian Wuillemin

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    567

    Default

    I would use the standard rod bolts.

    My race motor spun a bearing due to oil surge. The rod cap and rod snapped in two and the rod bolts were still intact and able to have the nuts taken off.
    Oil starvation and excessive piston speeds are two different things with two different results. I was recommending ARP fasteners for the 8000 RPM target. IMHO They are the best thing on the market in regards to preventing/limiting bolt stretch which occurs at very high RPM.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    634

    Default

    Good luck racing 405, if you need info PM me.

    chez00, you know nothing about my motor or how it was built, let alone how many RPM were used. The stresses on a motor in a blow up would be amongst the highest ever seen by the component. The bolts were fine.
    Adrian Wuillemin

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Traralgon
    Posts
    649

    Default

    Thanks guys. Good advice here.

    For what it is worth, I have new conrods - H beam forged steel items to match the Wossner forged pistons. The con rod bolts are ARP.

    I have had the crank ground and sized for 0.3 under size mains. Crank has also been nitrided. Everything has measured up well with micrometers.

    Whole bottom end has been balanced. Haven't yet replaced the flywheel bolts, but already noticed that they are grade 10.9, so I wouldn't have normally re-used them anyway.

    Oil starvation should not be a problem ever again for this car. I have a dry sump already fitted and ready for it's first outing. It is a sump pan and pump out of the UK. Only thing I don't like is how the pump is mounted. When i have it off to fit on the new engine, I will probably improve the mounting arrangement. It has an external releif valve, and is currently making 20PSi at cranking speed cold. System now holds around 9.5 litres including tank, remote filter and lines.

    Really hope that 8000 RPM is reliable - if it expires early I will be heartbroken. In truth, all the engines I have built prior to now have been Ford 6s and 8s. None of those have detonated on me.

    Once running, will post some footage. Will take the opportunity to PM some of you shortly.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by racing405; 15th February 2011 at 09:26 PM. Reason: Typing errors

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    634

    Default

    Can i ask why 8000 rpm.

    From my experience the head will easily flow to the kind of revs your are talking. We have flowed them.

    The limiting factor will be the shrouding of the inlet valve by the bore. Hence why we now run iron blocks with larger bores. We did a few tricks at the top of the liner to help this but it is a lot of work.

    From someone that has spent lots of money on a 205 race car and searching for power, i would drop the anticipated rpm down to about 7250 to 7500. This will help the motor hang together.

    Spend more time gearing the car to the tracks your run at. Lots of revs are useless if you waste time changing gear or unable to use the power you have. You are limited by the ratios available unless you buy quaife gear sets. Lots of $. You amy raise the rpm limit once the gearing is right to help eliviate one gear change before a corner. This helps to steady the car.

    Also, make sure you stretch the ARP rod bolts correctly. Check their website for the details. If installed incorrectly they are prone to breaking. Aslo use their special grease for lubricating them.
    Adrian Wuillemin

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    567

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wuillemi View Post
    Good luck racing 405, if you need info PM me.

    chez00, you know nothing about my motor or how it was built, let alone how many RPM were used. The stresses on a motor in a blow up would be amongst the highest ever seen by the component. The bolts were fine.
    A little hostile - I think you misinterpreted or I came across wrong. You said you spun a big end from oil surge - no mention of RPM or how you built the engine. Oil starvation generally causes a conrod to overheat suddenly and become brittle, thus cracking and blowing into a few pieces. Rod bolts wouldn't really come into the equation whether OEM or ARP. The only reason why I suggested the ARP bolts was to prevent rod bolt stretch at high RPM. I was not making the comment as a criticism of your engine, nor that ARP would prevent oil surge problems.

    You make some good points about RPM and gearing.
    The main thing I'd look at would be usable torque through correct cam selection.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    634

    Default

    Not hostile, just get annoyed by people jumping to conclusions without the facts.

    The 5 years of running with 2 drivers and getting bussed on the downshift ( in the heat of dicing) and run to 7450rpm gives me faith in the standard rod bolts.

    ARP bolts are tricky to set up if you dont know what you are doing, pug bolts aren't.
    Adrian Wuillemin

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    567

    Default

    Not hostile, just get annoyed by people jumping to conclusions without the facts.
    Get annoyed if you wish but I didn't "jump to any conclusions without the facts." I made the point that we were talking about two different things: you used your example of oil surge failure. I was talking about rod bolt stretch at high RPM. I pointed out that the two are different, and that at high RPM in my opinion ARP bolts would be the right choice - nothing else.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,553

    Default

    What springs, retainers and bases did you use?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Traralgon
    Posts
    649

    Default Springs and bits.

    Without knowing much better, I have used CatCams springs (PAC-S1001 -4.75kg/mm) and CatCams retainers (99333 Titanium). Also CatCams solid followers (CC004 which are from an Opel and are 14.7mm internal height = 1.9mm higher than the Peugeot items). With some pretty big cams (4901551 with 12.05 and 11.55 max lift), the package is completed with vernier pulleys.

    I have a spare set of solid lifters for this engine which are 12.8mm internal height and a set of lash caps to suit the standard valve stems. I chose to replace both with the longer followers.

    Head has been machined for lobe clearance, probably indicating I have really used too big a cam.

    Throttle bodies are Jenvey, injectors are Pico JWP043 (360CC??? I think, but should be capable of delivering well over 300HP so more than big enough).

    Pistons are Wossner forged K9042D050 which with the standard head gasket should give me 11.4:1. Conrods are matching forged steel H beams. Had to bore the small end bushes to suit the larger pin on this engine.

    Liners went to Baker Precision Engines for boring to match pistons.

    Crank is ground 0.3 under, nitrided and ballanced.

    Power steering pump is gone, distributor is gone. I have an electronic power steering kit ready to go in if I decide it is too heavy to manage without.

    With your springs in the back end, lowered, revalved struts with adjustable lower spring mounts on the front. Currently running standard 15" MI16 rims with Yoko A032s - 205x55x15s all round.

    Dry sump is from Pace. Remote filter housing now has a Z9, return line to tank has a high flow hydraulic spin on filter (think it is 100 micron).

    Only thing i haven't yet got around to is considering managing crankcase vacuum. Will probably hunt up a decent adjustable vacuum controller so that i can maintain a slight vacuum in the crankcase. At the moment, it breathes through the oil tank and subsequent breather.

    Gear box has had 1st 2nd and 3rd replaced with the alternate ratios. Fitted with Quaiffe diff centre.

    Exhaust (due to be sorted out next) has the cat converter removed, 2.5" hot dog and side pipe. It is very loud.

    Right now, running a second hand engine with the dry sump, cam advance key, new ECU and Jenvey quads. Otherwise standard. Going on dyno soon, no idea what it will turn out.

    Biggest mistake i have made so far is the ECU - I bought a Microtec M172 (not Microtech) which is very functional but poorly supported.

    Ok, so I think that's pretty much it, no more secrets about this engine.

    Cheers.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,553

    Default

    I've used those springs before with standard retainers, but you have to be careful with seat pressures. I had to get new thicker shims made to get them in spec. They might be different with their own retainers, but it's something you'd verify anyway.

    It's normal to machine the bucket bores for clearance, and/or use larger diameter buckets.

    Those cams are very similar to what I use.

    I don't understand why you've gone for a longer stem on the bucket. Won't that mean your shims will be very thin on standard length valves? Or possibly non-existant?
    Last edited by PeterT; 17th February 2011 at 09:02 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Traralgon
    Posts
    649

    Default

    Peter,
    I have never used shims like this before. I have had shims ground for a couple of engines in the past, but what CatCams provide is a 'lash cap' which is a neat (small clearance) fit on the top of the valve stem and works between the valve and the internal stem on the follower. In an effort to reduce the length of the lash cap, I have bought the longer followers. The lash cap will still wind up about 4.6mm long. Machining these is proving challenging. Fortunately I have access to a small NC lathe with a set of precision collets for the chuck. We will part them down to clost to the right length and just gring the last 0.1 or so.

    We checked the bucket bores before rebuilding the head. Bores were good, so were the valve guides. Was ready to redo both, but determined not required on this head. Next one may be different.

    Cheers.

    Cheers.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,553

    Default

    I was also refering to the shims which go under the valve springs. If you use the 10011 springs with the standard 0.5mm shims I doubt you'll have enough seat pressure. You won't know until you do a trial assembly and measure the installed spring height and meausure the springs. I like to keep 80lbs on the seat. It's easy to get new thicker shims made locally, without having to stack up thin shims which is bad engineering practice. I used the same springs in Jeff's head and needed approx 2mm of shim. Here's a pics of the parts I use. The lash caps are also made locally by the same firm, at a price you wouldn't waste your with.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails XU9J4 rebuild specifics.-double_spring_head_parts.jpg  

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Traralgon
    Posts
    649

    Default

    Quite right, I haven't done a trial assembly yet so don't know if the seated pressure is going to be right or not. Wish I had known about the local lash cap maker - may have been a simpler solution. Leve and learn.

    Once I have put a couple of springs in, I will check the fully open length, fully closed length and decide what (if anything) I need for the bottom mount. CatCams seemed pretty certain that there was nothing else required if using their spring and retainer on a standard valve. Seats have been ground, but not too far from standard.

    Have spent quite a while dressing the rest of the head up, and just about ready to machine either side of the buckets so that the cam will clear.

    I see in your picture you used 2 piece springs. What was the total spring rate on this assembly?

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,553

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    I see in your picture you used 2 piece springs. What was the total spring rate on this assembly?
    80 on the seat, 200 open @ 11mm. When you're building an engine to rev to 8000 don't trust anyone's hear say. Measure it all yourself. To give you an idea, if you recut the standard seats and using a standard spring & shim, the seat pressure will drop from 75 to 65lbs.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •