504 TI misfiring when warm.
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Default 504 TI misfiring when warm.

    A friend's 504 TI ( with Kugelfischer ) has started to misfire when it gets a bit warm. Not sure exactly how hot this is, but assume it's below operating temp. Car was not overheating. Currently has thermostat removed to keep it as cool as possible, but problem persists.
    Misfiring happens at idle and under acceleration. Has got worse recently.
    I know nothing about fuel injection.......anyone else had this problem ?
    A mechanic friend said it might be the coil. It has had both fuel filters replaced, but clogging of these is not consistent with the symptoms anyway. The coil is......I will replace it today.
    Meanwhile, any suggestions please ?

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    A friend's 504 TI ( with Kugelfischer ) has started to misfire when it gets a bit warm. Not sure exactly how hot this is, but assume it's below operating temp. Car was not overheating. Currently has thermostat removed to keep it as cool as possible, but problem persists.
    Misfiring happens at idle and under acceleration. Has got worse recently.
    I know nothing about fuel injection.......anyone else had this problem ?
    A mechanic friend said it might be the coil. It has had both fuel filters replaced, but clogging of these is not consistent with the symptoms anyway. The coil is......I will replace it today.
    Meanwhile, any suggestions please ?

    Give the car a full electrical tune up & check the the short rubber hoses between the inlet manifold and the "log" are in good condition and not leaking. Many people fit hose clips either end. Check all the hoses attached to the "log" for leaks/cracks.

    I would also be checking that injection pump diaphragm is not split.

    It's not impossible an injector is playing up.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    A friend's 504 TI ( with Kugelfischer ) has started to misfire when it gets a bit warm. Not sure exactly how hot this is, but assume it's below operating temp. Car was not overheating. Currently has thermostat removed to keep it as cool as possible, but problem persists.
    Misfiring happens at idle and under acceleration. Has got worse recently.
    I know nothing about fuel injection.......anyone else had this problem ?
    A mechanic friend said it might be the coil. It has had both fuel filters replaced, but clogging of these is not consistent with the symptoms anyway. The coil is......I will replace it today.
    Meanwhile, any suggestions please ?
    I assu,me it has had spark plugs recently? Often the cause of missfires in a ti, and then as mentioned coil.

    As Robmac says give the electrics a thorough run through (before assuming it is anything to do with the injection) - plugs, points, condensor, leads & coil.

    Cheers

    Jim

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug303 View Post
    I assu,me it has had spark plugs recently? Often the cause of missfires in a ti, and then as mentioned coil.

    As Robmac says give the electrics a thorough run through (before assuming it is anything to do with the injection) - plugs, points, condensor, leads & coil.

    Cheers

    Jim
    On the subject of coils and plugs for Ti engines.

    The coil should be Bosch GT 40 or equivalent and the plugs need to be slightly wider gap than other XN engines. The exact numbers escape me.

    If you don't use a sports coil and wider plug gap it will be difficult to start when hot.

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    Is is also hard to start when warm? Disconnect the cold start injector when it is doing it and see if the symptoms disappear.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Thanks gents.....I'll do those things and report back.
    I don't think it was hard to start when warm, but I'll check with the owner.....or better still, take it for a spin and diagnose on the run.

  7. #7
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    Default Plug Gap

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    On the subject of coils and plugs for Ti engines.

    The coil should be Bosch GT 40 or equivalent and the plugs need to be slightly wider gap than other XN engines. The exact numbers escape me.

    If you don't use a sports coil and wider plug gap it will be difficult to start when hot.

    Rob,

    I beg to differ with the plug gap. My 1973 Ti was actually dyno'ed 3 times during warranty tuning problems (I wrote to France). Each time it came back with the plugs set at 0.022" (points 0.16" and the static timing set 4degrees BTDC). The last time it came back with a new injection pump and the above settings again, no problems since. I still have the Ti.

    Good Luck
    Present fleet:-
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    Check the vacuum hose to the brake booster.

    It might sound weird, but I had very similar symptoms in a carburettor 504 and just couldn't figure it out. I checked fuel and electrical systems over and over, but couldn't solve the problem. As I grew more frustrated, my web searching lead me to auto websites of ever decreasing direct relevance. All the sites said pretty much the same things, and I'd done all the checks a million times. Eventually on some random EFi forum there was a short sentence I hadn't seen on any other websites:

    Check the vacuum hose to the brake booster.

    I did, and the problem went away. Three weeks of research, and five bucks worth of rubber hose!

    I would check that before anything else. Firstly because it's cheap! But also because a leak in that hose will cause misfiring, and it seems particularly relevant to the heat factor in your query because a crack in the hose may only open up once the rubber has warmed up a bit.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by Binky; 4th February 2011 at 02:13 PM.

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    i ran all mt Ti's plugs at 26" and points at 16"

    low output coils are the Ti's downfall, you need a high output coil
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    i ran all mt Ti's plugs at 26" and points at 16"

    low output coils are the Ti's downfall, you need a high output coil
    I'm glad someone agrees...... I've often thought a 505 SR electronic distributor and high energy module would really help a TI....

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I've often thought a 505 SR electronic distributor and high energy module would really help a TI....
    I saw no difference between electronic and points ignition in my Ti and one of the rally cars here is running with high compression and points with no problems. I think it comes down to the condition of the dizzy and the coil.

  12. #12
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    Default 26 inch plug gap!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    i ran all mt Ti's plugs at 26" and points at 16"

    low output coils are the Ti's downfall, you need a high output coil

    I now have no doubt that your Ti did 200km/h !
    Present fleet:-
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    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

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    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I'm embarrassed to say...problem fixed ! I replaced the points, condensor and coil ( a Bosch, but not a GT40.... )
    The car was presented to me by my friend who owns it, as having a probable injector pump problem. He had a 504 for 15 years previously and was familiar with doing points etc, but had evidently not checked em.
    Now the plugs, points, condensor, leads & coil have been replaced, but even though the car has a newish engine, it doesn't seem to have the "get up and go" I had heard TIs have.....though I've never driven one before. I used to have a 504 carby models years back, but now I'm used to my 505 SR, which, though it's only a 3-speed auto, has a lot of torque compared to the 504 TI.
    Perhaps a tweaking by a professional is in order ??? What else would they do ? Have the injectors removed and cleaned professionally, so that they're spraying a nice fine mist ?

    Good idea Rob, a 505SR ignition system would certainly be less drama; it was a breath of fresh air to get away from points when I got my 505. I'll suggest this mod to my friend.
    Last edited by Beano; 7th February 2011 at 05:57 AM.

  14. #14
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    A good Ti should leave a 505SR for dead, so clearly a stepwise approach is in order. Take cylider pressures, measure fuel pump pressure, adjust valves, clean up injectors. If the sluggishness persists, it may be time for a professional.

    Are the rear brakes sticking? Commmon 504 problem that will for sure slow things down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    I'm embarrassed to say...problem fixed ! I replaced the points, condensor and coil ( a Bosch, but not a GT40.... )
    The car was presented to me by my friend who owns it, as having a probable injector pump problem. He had a 504 for 15 years previously and was familiar with doing points etc, but had evidently not checked em.
    Now the plugs, points, condensor, leads & coil have been replaced, but even though the car has a newish engine, it doesn't seem to have the "get up and go" I had heard TIs have.....though I've never driven one before. I used to have a 504 carby models years back, but now I'm used to my 505 SR, which, though it's only a 3-speed auto, has a lot of torque compared to the 504 TI.
    Perhaps a tweaking by a professional is in order ??? What else would they do ? Have the injectors removed and cleaned professionally, so that they're spraying a nice fine mist ?

    Good idea Rob, a 505SR ignition system would certainly be less drama; it was a breath of fresh air to get away from points when I got my 505. I'll suggest this mod to my friend.
    The Ti distributor is a special build to give the desired timing in the confined space available.
    Many times carby distributors have been fitted and correct timing not achieved.
    Correct distributors are M53 and M77.
    To fit the Sr dissy you could redrill the shaft or maybe fit an extension so the distributor clears the inlet manifold in any position.
    Graham

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    Default Wrong Coil

    I had a similar problem that I wrote about last year seeking advice. Missing 504Ti (75) engine & no power. It went on for 18 months. It turned out the coil that was added to fix the problem originally was the wrong one ie a resistor-based coil - one that should operate with an external resistor. But apparently my car doesn't have an external resistor & it was putting out too much current & burning out the points within a few weeks after every trip to the mechanic. It was then running rough to very rough & crap driving experience to not going at all over this period
    The electricals were replaced many times. I'd been to the fuel injector people various times because i was told it can't be electrical everything been done. The Fuel Injector people said the same thing ie it must be electrical. Finally the auto elec replaced the coil which was turned so the label couldn't be seen.
    What was the cause originally before the wrong coil was added. Not sure. But I assume it was addressed in the original service. It's was just unfortunate that the wrong coil was added turning my driving experience into a regular ordeal
    I hope this helps someone out there to avoid an extended period of driving hassle.

    Nickc

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    The Ti distributor is a special build to give the desired timing in the confined space available.
    Many times carby distributors have been fitted and correct timing not achieved.
    Correct distributors are M53 and M77.
    To fit the Sr dissy you could redrill the shaft or maybe fit an extension so the distributor clears the inlet manifold in any position.
    Graham
    Just to clarify Graham's post. The issue is not the advance curve but a physical issue. The advance capsule has grid lock with the inlet manifold unless the correct distributor is used.

    If the position of drive is moved most distrubutors will fit.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    If the engine has been rebuilt using the Haynes manual, the drive position will be in the wrong position anyway !
    I'm not sure if they ever corrected it, but believe it or not, they got it wrong. Years ago I followed the manual, couldn't figure out why the dizzy was in the wrong position, and an old Pug mechanic told me about the mistake.

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