Andreas, question about injectors
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    Andreas, question about injectors

    Andreas, I am aiming for 200bhp for my mi16, and I have heard you mentioned in relation to this matter. PeterT suggested magna injectors, do you have any thoughts. Which particular Magna are we talking about I wonder. Are the bigger injectors enough or do you need to increase fuel pressure?
    Of course I don't want to buy new injectors(assuming they're expensive), so what are these 300cc things you spoke of that you are using now from.
    You said you got 196bhp, this was in a 1.9? What sort of power did you get at the wheels, and what did you do to the motor to get there. A lot of questions, but I haven't been able to find the answers in previous posts. Thanks. p.s. is your current car the one that went POP at Phillip Island a couple of years ago?

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    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    Hi Warwick,
    I ended up buying new injectors, they are listed as Ford Motorsport injectors, 300cc at normal pressure.

    It's a new motor in the same car, bought after the PI experience.
    It's a 1.9 mi16, imported from the UK, used in 2 targa tassies and that's all it had done.
    It apparently has tarmac rally cams fitted but this is very much debateable after seeing the dyno chart/driving, there has been no head work.
    Also has 48mm quad throttle bodies and is run by a Motec M4pro.
    Power at the wheels was 105kw a year ago, dyno'd at Dat Rally (down the road from Straightway).

    Andreas

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! WRX2PUG's Avatar
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    Hi Andreas,

    Which throttle bodies do you have fitted to your motor and are your injectors mounted on the top or bottom?

    Would love to see some pics of the motor

    Cheers
    Steve
    Renault Clio F1R27 road car and Supercharged Lotus Elise track car

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    I have EFi hardware/Speed Technology throttle bodies.
    Injectors are in their standard position as the standard manifold was used for the job.
    I'll try to locate some pics for you.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    best pic i could find for the moment.

    <img src="http://www.sony.com.au/objects/600x400/DSC02437.jpg" alt=" - " />

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    Gorgeous Car Andreas, and thanks for your help, but doesn't 105 killer Whats at the wheels shape up to be about 167 bhp at the flywheel? I may be uninformed about this but this cant be the 196 bhp car you were talking about, not on those figures anyway? I hope I'm not misquoting you here. Have you done other mods to get there, or was that another car? Or did I miss-read things totally.
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    Dat Rally esimated the flywheel power being 196bhp, one of the dyno charts I have is 105kw.
    Not sure whether it was a snapshot or power run though.

    I'm pretty sure 167bhp (flywheel) equates to about 122kw (flywheel) as per GTi6 specs.

    I tend not to use flywheel figures as it's only guessing, and dyno figures are debatable anyway.
    As soon as I get a bit of time i'll need to have it tuned again, i'll post the dyno chart then.

    Andreas

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    HP @ wheels = kW @ flywheel

    So 105kw (140hp) @ wheels = 140kw (187hp) @ flywheel.

    That sounds about right for mild cams, good CR and throttle bodies.

    Stay tuned. Friend Owen Wuiilemin, is building a ported big valve, big CR, big cams and throttle body equipped Mi16 for his 205. Hoping it will break the 200hp barrier easily.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    Peter, so how do you get that?
    105 kw times 1.34 = 141 bhp
    141 bhp + 10 bhp times 0.9 = 167.7 bhp. at the flywheel.
    Refer link:
    <a href="http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/trans.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/trans.htm</a>

    My 205 was lively, but with 121 bhp at the wheels, it wasn't 162bhp using your formula. It felt like a 145-150 bhp motor.
    Andreas' is a british motor with throttle bodies only. With no cam (as he suspects)and no other mods, it may add 10 bhp maybe 20bhp if it's setup properly in a 2 litre, on a good day, with a tail wind(on a dyno?)
    Aint no way 105 kw at the wheels is 187 bhp at the flywheel. You think you lose 46 bhp through a FWD drivetrain? That's almost Datsun 120Y power!
    The gearbox would well and truly melt! Or 27 bhp for throttle bodies and a computer. All that we are adding in this case is more fuel and more spark advance.
    187 bhp I don't think so. I'm sure it's a nice car, but...
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    i've definitely got wilder cams, all i said was that they dont seem as wild as they were claimed to be, the head has been gas flowed but nothing major has been done.

    i'm not trying to claim any opimistic, fantasy figures, otherwise i'd claim that i've got 220bhp....manh people would, just read a UK car mag.
    i'm going by what Dat Rally have estimated, they've tuned other mi16's with similar and wilder setups aswell.

    and as i've always said, dyno figures are debatable.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    Fair enough Andreas, I read between the lines incorrectly about the cams. But having been fascinated by this flywheel to dyno power loss business since I found no experts could were in agreement about what sort of power my 205 actually had at the flywheel I have looked into this matter a bit. The answer is that it is not a simple extrapolation. Seems some retailers are quick to tell a customer what he wants to hear. I.e. a figure of more flywheel BHP than less. I'm not referring to you here either. Some quote up to 30% power loss through the drivetrain.
    The only concensus I can seem to find for a FWD is around 15%, or the more accurate formula mentioned above. On the figures it would seem to be 167 bhp ish, but with injectors cams AND gas flowed head as well as the other stuff the figure sounds low. So the next dyno figs will be interesting.
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

  12. #12
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    I'm with you Warwick these figures always get me
    enthused. In particular driveline losses. I have had five 205's now and all have had a 27% loss thru driveline including my last 16v 205. However my latest 16v 205 has what seems to be a whopping
    37% loss. Ironically all have been done on the same dyno over all those years.

    As that professor once said "why is it so" .
    The variables attributed to d/line loss are many it seems..so can one really believe ANY dyno??
    cheers jr
    jr20516v

    Now:
    Exige SC [modded], 205 Si. 205 GTi , Megane R26 LY , Megane 225 [modded ]


    Previous: Honda EP3 Supercharged , 205 x34 [ including MI16 TURBO, 8v TURBO, CTI, 16V+TB's, 8V+TB's,] Fiat X1-9 X3, Beta coupes x5, Lancia Gamma coupe, GTI-R, Corvette C4, Fiero x5, Alpine GTA turbo, r5 GTT Dimma, 2cv ripple nose, Lotus Elise, 205 Dimma TT, Cliosport 172.x2, Clio rs 200

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    i've always gone by 25% or so loss, it was exactly that on my standard mi16, 82kw @ wheels.

    Andreas

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! WRX2PUG's Avatar
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    Interesting topic guys and Andreas thanks for posting the pic - beautiful car (and awesome throttle-bodies) - love those trumpets. Do they provide enough air-filtration though?

    In terms of at the wheels power vs flywheel power, this was always a massive point of debate with the WRX guys as 4wd dyno figures and drivetrain loss were always 'complex' and open to interpretation. I'm certainly no expert but thought that in the case of 2WD/FWD, there was a reasonably standard factor or range (min/max) attributed to drivetrain loss for a typical FWD?

    I am going to have my 205-Mi16 dynoed soon as a figure prior to changing the Wolf computer to an Autronics. We are going to use one of the new Dynapack dynos. These actually attach directly to the hubs and apparently provide a much more accurate power figure at the wheels as there is no loss or unecessary 'alteration' provided by the rolling road component of the dyno. I'll probably do a rolling road dyno run as well as a comparison and will let you know what we get.

    PS - did some 1/4 mile runs on Wed - will post result against the original topic I created :-)

    Cheers
    Wrx2Pug
    Renault Clio F1R27 road car and Supercharged Lotus Elise track car

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    i take the filters off at car shows, each trumpet has it's own sock filter and i've also got an air box that i've been using lately with just a filter on the end of the induction pipe, that's why one of the highbeam's has been removed.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I can't see why the driveline losses would be any different in a FWD car. There are exactly the same number of components, just rearranged in a diffrent way, with shorter shafts. If anything, the addition of CV joints versus a live axle, should be worse.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Driveline loss, can change constantly to age/wear/condition of components, to the operating temp of the tyres and wether they use a high (ie 4th or 5th)or low gear to run the car up, on most Dyno sessions ive been to in sydney 3rd or 4th gear seem to be picked, andthe PSI on the tyres let down just a fraction for both grip and tourque transfer. Calculated loss in the g/box can vary on the same car more than Power@wheels. Also not all dynos as Andreas said are calibrated the same its just a figure to give you a guide. The best is before and after comparisons!! Also i can easily see 200BHP (not HP), from a mi16, like andreas as his MOtec computer injectors, exhaust, Quads etc. Can make 200Bhp on that engine, what can he doo with it is another story?! lol, Andreas youll have to remove the Box when you wanna cane it>!
    Either way its generally excepted that 25% loss is common but not always true for a FWD, 30% for a RWD and 35% for a 4WD, but you can swing these depending on the factors i mentioned before.
    Hopefully im going to put my car SAS's dyno and have a before and after sheet.
    xqisid
    ... ptui!

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    It's also easy for dyno operators to give a customer a "flash" reading just to please them. This is done by applying the load suddenly, causing a fast torque reaction, rather than apply the load steadily. I've seen this add 30hp at the wheels to a true 220hp at the wheels, because the customer wasn't happy with 220.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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