How to get 180-200hp from 205 8v ?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    How to get 180-200hp from 205 8v ?

    This is what I'm aiming for and just thought I would get some opinions on whether its possible and how to achieve it.

    I'm getting an engine rebuilt that will have the following:

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    HEAD:
    - oversize stainless steel valves
    - bronze guides
    - ported head, mainly around the valve area and in the chambers
    - cam: 300deg duration and 0.480" lift
    - vernier cam gear

    BOTTOM END:
    - o'ringed block
    - 84mm 12:1 forged pistons with Mi16 pin arrangement
    - shotpeened and polished 1.9L standard rods
    - ARP rod bolts
    - linished 1.9L crank with cross drilled oil galleries for better oil flow
    - modified oil pump for more flow
    - baffled sump

    INDUCTION:
    - quad 45mm throttle bodies housing ???? injectors

    EXHAUST:
    - 4into1 extractors with 2.25" mandrell bent system

    All controlled by an EMS computer and will run on 98RON fuel.

    Any comments ??? deal

    Darren

    <small>[ 10 April 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: YEL020 ]</small>

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! neil's Avatar
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    For the money you would spend doing that, you could buy and modify an Mi16 motor to get the similar power and probably save money buy doing so.

    That engine would be an animal tho!

    I will give a detailed story of my Mi16 conver when the adventure starts in June. I give you a full cost, how long it took, how hard and supply photos.

    Form all account these things are animals with this conver.

    Neil
    205GTI/Mi16
    Tony Sprint Kart

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    This way I can run insome classes that wouldn't be avialable otherwise as I am still using the original block.

    And, its harder to get the same power so its more of a challenge.

    I'll find out exactly what its going to set me back in the next week when I get the full costing.

    Darren

  4. #4
    Gus
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    Fellow Frogger! Gus's Avatar
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    If you don't mind me asking, how much is all that costing you? Are you having all the work done?

    I was also wondering if you'll be registering it for the street... With the quad throttle bodies you'll need an engineer's certificate, right?

    Sounds like a beast though...

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    I am having most of the work done by a mate who owns a workshop. He is heavily into NA 4 cylinder engines. Its his passion.

    I'm expecting it to cost about $10-$12k. It may be more, I don't know yet.

    The car is registered and will remain registered. Its not my daily driver though so I won't be getting it engineered or anything. I'm insured with Shannons, who are fine with these sorts of mods. I have already asked.

    And another thing, once this is all sorted I will probably be putting nitrous on it for drag racing. head_ban

    Darren

    <small>[ 10 April 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: YEL020 ]</small>

  6. #6
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    YEL020:
    And another thing, once this is all sorted I will probably be putting nitrous on it for drag racing. head_ban
    Cool Darren
    Make sure you let us all know we'll be there to cheer ya on lol
    Derek

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    The guy that did my series one head said that no matter what was done to the head it wouldn't make more than about 170 bhp as the head and valve area isnt capable of flowing more than that. Maybe if it was force fed. I dunno.
    No need for a vernier pulley unless you shave the head, especially if you are getting a cam ground, as the valves will open at the right times anyway.
    You wont get that power with the standard head design. The combustion chamber shape just aint good enough, though a series 3 is better it still prolly aint good enough.
    12:1 is too much for premium unleaded probably. Would need AVGAS.
    Waste of money.
    An Mi16 motor would be a reasonable way to do it.
    A well thought out turbo system would be much better.
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    There are 8V 205's in the UK claiming to have 200hp, but who knows?

    Getting cheap hp with avgas will soon be a thing of the past, as it's almost impossible to buy Avgas now. By 2005 it will be extinct if the gov. has their way. At present, you need a Cams License and Lead Fuel Passbook to buy avgas. I think it's better to tune it for 98, ie less than 11:1 with that type of chamber. To get that much hp, you'll need revs. Probably about 8000. With more revs you need reliablity. My spec would be this:
    Mi16 fully counterweighted crank
    Mi16 ribbed liners.
    Mi16 design 83.5mm forged pistons (without the valve reliefs)
    big valve head with modified chambers
    larger S2 205 drive shafts
    larger Mi16 clutch.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    The 1.9 has such a poor rod/stroke ratio you might be more successfull with the 1.6. You'd be able to rev it a lot higher, with better reliablity.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    The bore/stroke ratio is one thing we will be looking at. We would like to keep the 1.6's stroke but it will be a matter of a trade-off between torque and rpm. Yes more rpm generally means more hp but at what expense of torque?

    Clutch will of course be upgraded and will have to see how the driveshafts hold up. If they snap, well I'll get some others.

  11. #11
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    Reading a "Cars and Car conversions" mag there was a story on budget racers. A guy had installed 2 litre liners in the block, gas flowed head, quad throttle bodies, angry cam and was claiming 200bhp the guy that drove the car said it was very tractable. Think it was the Jan 2003 edition not too sure. So yeah its possible, sounds like fun!
    05' Megane 225 Cup

  12. #12
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    for someone who has no mechanical/engine knowledge, all of that has gone straight over my head whistle

    but for what its worth Darren, can't wait to see the finished product!!! head_ban
    ashleyt

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    1990 205GTI Red - Track Car ("431")

    EC:2:02.18, WP:1:16.07, OP 54.27, OPGP 1:28.83, Huntley 32.34

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    I have given my mechanic the go-ahead.

    It will commence the week of the 28th of this month and will be off-the-road for about 4 weeks.

    Can't wait. head_ban

    Darren

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    ......Nice one Daz, even 170 Bhp is mooving in a 205!! good luck.
    I just happened to drop my car into Esscargo for repairs and watched Stuart finishing off a Port and Polish job on a 206 GTi head, to which the owner is also fitting a street cam (ie not too lumpy), ecu work, and exhaust.. should be nice to drive when finished, id like to see how well it pulls in 3rd coz thats such an important gear for track work ( now wat i mean Daz)
    cheers
    Xq
    ... ptui!

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    I don't wanna rain on your parade but at the end of the day u're really better off getting it blown with 12 pounds... it's gonna be quicker and cheaper!!

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    Ummm.....really ???? And you'll get 250-300hp ???? That's what I'll have with the nitrous, depending on how much nitrous I use.

    I just love that attitude.

    And, to do it properly, you would have to do nearly everything I have done anyway.

    Oh, thats right, you can turbo anything for $2000.

    <small>[ 15 April 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: YEL020 ]</small>

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    U're gonna spend 12 grand on 250 horse? Then don't forget an engine rebuild every 20,000ks.
    I've tried a 150 shot on 3/4 throttle on mine and it doesn't work well with the standard rods, they end up like pretzels.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    I don't see why you think I will need a rebuild every 20,000kms. The engine builder has built another engine in a Lancer every bit as wild as mine and the car has done 30,000 faultless kms and does 380km per tank of fuel.

    Exactly what had you done to the standard rods to prep them for nitrous? I may be using the factory rods but they will be appropriately prepped for the job. Besides, I can't see me using the full 150hp available.

    And what mods had you done as far as fuelling goes?

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    Nothing was done 2 standard rod 2 prepare for nitro apart from deepfrying them hahaa!!... although i used a smaller fuel line from a super bike for better pressure but I'm telling u if u want extra power in u're 205 and u've got a bit of money 2 spend drop a GT45 roller baring turbo in it, forgies and a fully studded block. It'll do 11's all day.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    <span><span class=ResizableText0>
    Originally</span> posted by Luca: if u want extra power in u're 205 and u've got a bit of money 2 spend drop a GT45 roller baring turbo in it, forgies and a fully studded block. It'll do 11's all day.[/QB]
    </span> </span>
    sorry but it wont, low-mid 12's on slicks maybe, not 11's... sorry but you need atleast a 400Hp engine in a sub 1000Kg car to do consistant 11's, maybe the odd high 11' with slicks and only when it does hook up.
    BUT, having said all that the turbo car will handle like a sack of potatoes round atrack, so next will a come a LSD, then bigger brakes to cope with the extra power, wich will need a suspention change to cope with the loading and balancing, which will work more heat onto the tyres etc, well past $12,000 now.. ..... and for 12K id still do the N/A route, like darren.
    get to it son.lol.
    Cheers
    Xq
    ... ptui!

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! AxGT's Avatar
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    Luca, not if you've got a XUJ9 series motor.
    The wet liners are not condusive to much boost - 6 or 7 psi max

    if you're gonna do that sorta stuff - perhaps an iron block would be better

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts parry's Avatar
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    THis is what Darrens car will look like when finished

    <a href="http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=5835&s=887f884452beeb1b3e49 7466c77ce457" target="_blank">http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=5835&s=887f884452beeb1b3e49 7466c77ce457</a>
    90 205 Gti Cherry Red(Track Car)
    2009 207gti
    1985 505gti (Shitbox Rally) Sold

    PBs:

    Oran Park: 1:27:9
    Wakefield: 1:05.6 (July 2015)
    Eastern Creek: 1:47 (16V) 2019
    Mt Huntley: 34.44 (2004 stock 205)
    Ringwood: 35.06 (30/10/2005)
    Winton: 1:33.6 (2017)

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    DARREN, you must dyno the car and let us know the results. Wheel horsepower please, not the extrapolated engine figures.
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    The secret to the power is how well the head is ported, not just the bits that are whacked on the motor.
    May I make a useful suggestion?
    1. Get the car dynoed NOW on the rebuilders preferred dyno
    2. Get IN WRITING what parts are to be fitted and what power gains are to be expected. If he is selling you $12000 worth of work then surely he will put that on paper for you. Guaranteed.
    3. Get it dynoed after, so you have something to show the court.
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    Warwick.

    Yes I will be dynoing it of course. It will spend a few hours on the dyno being tuned for the running in process then once run in will go back on the dyno for the "proper" tune and tune the nitrous.

    And noone will be taking anyone to court.

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