Politecnec N9T and R21 12v head questions
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Politecnec N9T and R21 12v head questions

    I just found this (and translated it)
    Engine 2.2 Turbo type N9T/N9TE in standard exchange - 4 039,90.

    HT All possible evolutions from 180 to 550 hp on request...

    This type of engine is delivered of series with forged pistons COSWORTH and cylinder head evolution II - (valves steel 32 CDV 13 - camshaft PTS 200 hp without appreciation). All machine elements of origin available immediately on request.
    On the Politecnec site in france. Reacon my brother could fit one in his luggage next time he comes back?? roll_lau roll_lau I can just see airport security now....... moon roll_lau

    I'd give most of my valuable appendages for even a 200hp version, besides the 550hp eek! wink



    But realistically did the R21 TXi 2L 12v ever make it to NZ?? or even Australia??

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    Would the 2L head fit on a 2.2L considering its just been stroked?? With creative effort??

    I can't find much info on it on the net, most is about the R21 Turbo.

    I can always dream.......

    Jono wink
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  2. #2
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    crosspug
    [QB]
    Would the 2L head fit on a 2.2L considering its just been stroked?? With creative effort??

    [QB]
    The 2L 8V head apparenty fits straight on the 2.2 (a few feugo owners have done this), so I guess the 12V would too, unless the head bolt pattern,etc was changed later on.

    Dave

  3. #3
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    Ive been searching for a R21 TXI in the New Zealand papers for a few months now (found 1 for 3000 $NZ) but havent the money just yet. I think the TXI was the one with the 'Star Wars'(digital) dash (?). Looking to put one of those 12v heads on my Fuego.

    Does anyone have a ball park of $ required to ship a car over from NZ?

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Looking to put one of those 12v heads on my Fuego.
    Exactly what I was thinking. But alas the budget at the moment is a little too tight for that.

    What pistons would you be trying to use?? (sorry I have no idea if the Fuego pistons are the same as the Peugeot) clown

    Would the pug GTi 9.8/1CR be useable?? (for the 2.2L) evil

    I think I remember reading somewhere that the R21 TXi had the 9.2/1CR like the 1995cc 505 STi.

    Jono
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  5. #5
    Gus
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    Hmm

    R21 TXI has 88mm bores w/ 82mm stroke and a CR of 9.3:1. (<a href="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Show/9396/r21/tech21a.htm">According to this (admittedly, Dutch) page</a>.

    According to that page, the 21TXI donk is good for 136hp (6000rpm)/174nm (4300rpm). I don't actually know how this compares to the 505 STI/GTIs as I've heard figures as low as 73kW (~100hp) and an optimistic sounding 130bhp for the UK GTi (<a href="http://www.autolinkuk.co.uk/club-peugeot/peugeot5.htm">here</a>).

    2165cc Peugeot 505 has 88mm bores w/ 89mm stroke, according to Haynes. Also according to Haynes, the CR on all 2165cc Pugs is 9.8 (I have had Alpine motors tell me that the difference between Series 1 STI and GTI heads/pistons/cams is insignificant, and that I should not bother swapping them.)

    Now, this part is dodgy cos I don't know a whole lot about engine speccing, but 1995/9.3=214.5cc compressed in the R21TXI head, and 2165/9.8=220.9cc compressed in the P505 GTI head. So, many (important) factors notwithstanding, this would indicate that a stock TXI head on a 505 w/ GTi pistons/liners would run a compression ratio of about 10.1:1. (Someone who knows more about engine maths than me, please tell me if this is justifiable.)

    The head could be made to fit, I imagine, if you could match all the head bolts and match any oil & coolant passages. How to tell? No idea... a cheap start might be to buy a R21 TXI head gasket from UK/NZ, lay it on a 505 block and play "spot the difference."

    The other thing is, if you're buying a whole car you could just fit the whole 21TXI engine.

    Buying just the head from a wreckers means you need to make sure you get the manifolds/dissy (if its mounted on the head)/thermostat housing and other head-mounted bits if they exist. Your average wrecker may not consider any of those parts to be important to a TXI owner, but you'd need to make sure you had all of them before you could begin.

    Exporting a front cut might prove economical (and you get to be sure you have everything you need.)

    Or you could just fit a different engine, one that's available in this country .

  6. #6
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    [quote]crosspug:
    What pistons would you be trying to use?? (sorry I have no idea if the Fuego pistons are the same as the Peugeot) clown
    Im not actually worried about what CR i will get as i'll be lowering the compression anyway. The TXI engine (J7R) is a descendant of the Fuego engine (J6R), same CR, same bore/stroke, im just hoping the only main difference is injection v carby. And of course the 12v! tongue So im hoping to mix and match quite a bit.

    The thing that suprised me is the engine number on the TXI engine is denominated J7R 754 which is the same as the R21 turbo engine (J7R 754/J7R 752). I wanted to import a R21 turbo but theyre too scarce over this side of the world.

    So im hoping to strap a garret to this donk. Maybe the only difference in R21turbo/TXI engines is the turbo? (plus lowered compression)

    I hope!

  7. #7
    Gus
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    rturbo - sounds like a plan!

    I'm not surprised the engines are similar. AFAIK, the Fuego, R20, R21, P505STI, P505GTI all use more or less the same block with different heads or manifolding in each case.

    (Which means if you want a cheap EFI head you could always get a P505 head and the manifold/throttle body from a 505 GTi)

    Are you going to have custom pistons made to lower CR, or go a dodgier (enlarged combustion chambers, or thicker copper head gasket) approach?

    If the R21TXI heads and Fuego heads are definitely swappable, my suggestion on using a head gasket to compare bolt patterns on the pug becomes very valid... just go find someone who's pulled the head off a Fuego recently. Does anyone out there have a used Fuego head gasket they want to sell me? I'll give you $5 + shipping costs.

  8. #8
    Gus
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    I was going to ask, though: Can a Fuego gearbox handle this much torque?

    ... when I was looking at buying a Fuego I was told this would be the major obstacle to making it powerful...

  9. #9
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    Don't forget that the 12V head may have different sized combustion chambers, so different piston domes may be needed to get the same compression ration on a 12V versus an 8V.

    Dave

    <small>[ 12 November 2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

  10. #10
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    According to my sister who works in the importing/shipping business, $2000 will more than cover the cost of importing a 20 foot shipping container full of stuff from New Zealand, including Port charges, etc. A 20 foot shipping container could contain all the spares you'd ever need.

    New Caledonia would probably have more rusty R21TXI's, but the cost of importing from there would probably be slightly more than NZ, due to the fact that it's a backwater as far as shipping companies are concerned. They send alot more stuff to New Caledonia, than they take from there.

    Dave

    <small>[ 12 November 2002, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Also according to Haynes, the CR on all 2165cc Pugs is 9.8 (I have had Alpine motors tell me that the difference between Series 1 STI and GTI heads/pistons/cams is insignificant, and that I should not bother swapping them.)
    I tend to agree with that, but all info that I have seen about Australian deliveries point to the 9.2/1 on the STi. I've always had a problem with how accurate that is, and how accurate the power figures are on the P505 STi/GTi's. Would love to see a dyno run on the two to compare them.

    Maybe the only difference in R21turbo/TXI engines is the turbo? (plus lowered compression)
    It would appear so.

    Blower + 12v Fuego = FUN wink head_ban

    if you're buying a whole car you could just fit the whole 21TXI engine.
    Maybe I'm just greedy but if its not going to be a turbo 2L, I'd still love a N/A 2.2 12v over a N/A 2L 12v. clown

    Or you could just fit a different engine, one that's available in this country
    Now, now we don't need any sense prevailing in this!!! roll_lau roll_lau

    Jono wink
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  12. #12
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    Gus:
    Are you going to have custom pistons made to lower CR, or go a dodgier (enlarged combustion chambers, or thicker copper head gasket) approach?

    If the R21TXI heads and Fuego heads are definitely swappable, my suggestion on using a head gasket to compare bolt patterns on the pug becomes very valid... just go find someone who's pulled the head off a Fuego recently. Does anyone out there have a used Fuego head gasket they want to sell me? I'll give you $5 + shipping costs.

  13. #13
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    Custom pistons sounds good...i guess it depends how much $ ive got. Im in no hurry so i want to do everything right the first time to build a tuff engine. At the moment im still deciding what i want and fishing ideas from people...ill get professional advice when i have the $....

    About the gearbox, i dunno. I asked ppl here in a thread what they thought, most ppl said that the fuego box would be good for the 250-300 nm estimated. I might try out my re-synchroed box i have sitting in the garage. If that fails, i'd probably try a box out of a R21 or R25 for size. But those days are still far ahead
    a_drink

    Even if TXI head dosent match, all that would probably have to be done to fit the Fuego is modify engine mounts.

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