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  1. #1
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    Remus exhaust

    I was thinking of getting a remus exaust so i did a search for 'Peugeot 306 Remus Exhaust' and look what came up (on the 4th page)

    Froggy Forum User - Phasis
    ... MAKE, PEUGEOT. MODEL, 306 S16. MODS, Remus Stainless exhaust Lowered 1 1/2 inchs
    - Peugeot Springs Kingdragon Pod Filter with Cold Air induction Dynoed @ 122kW. ...
    <a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/gallery/phasis.htm" target="_blank">www.aussiefrogs.com/gallery/phasis.htm</a> - 4k - Cached - Similar pages

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    hehe you're famous Phasis!! anyways, how is the sound? How much did it costyou?
    thanks

  2. #2
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Yeah...hellishly expensive, over $20,000, but i got a nice car with it. I got it with the car obviously.

    Apparently they were optional items when new. I have however seen a new 206 with the same tip so it may be the same exhaust. Ring the inporters and see.

    Noise: no where near as loud as any of those rice cookers. The only slight drone is at a constant rev under labor, and basically after 4000rpm its relatively quite and all you can hear is the engine.

    I have heard another S16 with an aftermarket exhuast and this was awefully loud compared to mine.
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  3. #3
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    Well that's good news.
    I (foolishly) got a cheap exhaust (Super Turbo, idiot, the name even sounds ricey) for my 205. I am really regreting it now. It sounded so much better with the standard system. It drones really bad at 2700-3500rpm. Just where the revs site in top gear on the open road. Really annoying. To get above it you have to do about 130kmph and I'd rather keep my licence thank you.
    I'd been considering a Remus backbox to replace the one I've got, but was worried about the same thing happening again. They have some really nice tips, I especially like the oval one (206 style)
    One thing I do like about the current set up is it gives a nice wee cackle sound up in the high revs. NICE

  4. #4
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    Not that I have a nice car such as all of yours but I can relate to the drop off of noise at 3500rpm in my car.

    Got caught in the middle of yo'sville with no option but to choose between two new mufflers or 1 x 2.5 sports exhaust and 2.5" piping (don't ask me?? thats what they offered) but with a 505STi how could I resist, some may say stupid but hey adds some interest.
    Loud between idle and 3500 revs, but not all bad but and drops out to a hum from then on. A godsent on the freeway, no more yelled conversations thanks to the bl##dy 3spd Auto.

    Jono

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  5. #5
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    Has anyone found a remus website that lists the different models they make? and in english too, i can't find any

  6. #6
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Just to add, i heard that these optional ones were around $500 each. Ring your loacl dealer and see if they can get one in. As I said, I think they are still offered on current models.
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  7. #7
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    I called the different pug parts places around sydney, i got prices from around 800 to 980!! this is jst for the part
    i called australia's best, they said 750 for the part, 795 fitted. I've called liverpool exaust and they will get back to me. I've also emailed the remus distributor (in melb) and am waiting for a reply. at these prices, i doubt i would get one, the mrs would kill me!

  8. #8
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    This may be useful - Autospeed (www.autospeed.com) conducted a massive muffler test, with the Genie straight through muffler showing excellent flow and muffling properties - quiter than many OE mufflers and flowing a hell of a lot more.

    You could have one of those fitted for a LOT less than that and get some of the pipework after the cat replaced (if it looks like it would be worthwile)

    If you want a classy name brand tip for looks, that's another matter completely.

    BTW I had my car up on the hoist today, to see where my exhaust leak was coming from. The standard system looks quite good for a factory setup, I was quite surprised.

  9. #9
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    Pugsly - at that price you are far better off getting a stainless cat back system from Esscargo.

    They've at least tested a few combos and come up with something that works.

  10. #10
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    ntrx,
    how do you know you've got a leak and what symptoms would you get? i'm still trying to figure the cause of my car's sudden rev drop to below 500rpm! damn dealer wasn't much help

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Pugsly:
    ntrx,
    how do you know you've got a leak and what symptoms would you get? i'm still trying to figure the cause of my car's sudden rev drop to below 500rpm! damn dealer wasn't much help
    The usual symptom of a leaky exhaust is simply noise, Pugsly, as long as it is after the O2 sensor and Cat. leaks before the O2 sensor can cause other problems because of the impact on O2 levels in the exhaust gases. In theory, by messing up flow characteristics, a leak AFTER the cat could also cause tuning problems, but its pretty unusual.

    Another thing worth considering in the exhaust area is a blockage caused by damage to the catalytic converter. This can happen as a result of bad or wrong fuel, or if the O2 sensor fails.

    I doubt that this is the cause of your idle problem though.

    take a look at <a href="http://www.interject.com.au/network1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.interject.com.au/network1.htm</a> for a good explanation of the interaction of different components in modern engine management / exhaust / ignition / fuel systems.

    Its a bit obscure, but another interject page at <a href="http://www.users.bigpond.com/INTERJECT/PROBLEM.HTM" target="_blank">http://www.users.bigpond.com/INTERJECT/PROBLEM.HTM</a> is worth a look too.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 16 April 2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Another site worth a look when trying to identify EFI problems is at <a href="http://www.findarticles.com/cf_mtrage/m3102/6_118/54882535/p1/article.jhtml" target="_blank">http://www.findarticles.com/cf_mtrage/m3102/6_118/54882535/p1/article.jhtml</a>

    Cheers

    Rod
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  13. #13
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    Thanks for the sites Rod!!

    Some more updates on pricing,

    Another Pug delear is offering trade price for the remus, as long as they can deliver it to a trade address. Dont want to mention the dealer here, in case i get them in trouble.
    But the price is $707 + GST. I don't think it's getting any cheaper, i will have to sit on this.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    ntrx:
    ...snip ...
    BTW I had my car up on the hoist today, to see where my exhaust leak was coming from. The standard system looks quite good for a factory setup, I was quite surprised.
    My own feelings about exhausts is that it is rarely worth fitting aftermarket systems unless you either:

    a) have done other engine modifications that make them necessary or

    b) are looking for a system with greater durability.

    By and large exhaust systems in good modern cars (like Peugeots) are pretty well tuned to the existing engine set-up. Fitting afer market systems may actually reduce performance unless you have have made other changes.

    Sure, there may be other reasons for fitting them (cosmetics, or you like the sound of them etc etc) , but unless you are doing other serious tuning mods - like changes to cams, pistons, heads etc etc, you probably won't achieve any performance improvement at all and you may well reduce it.

    Of course a new aftermarket system may well be better than a clagged old one with the cat falling out and the baffles gone etc etc, but you would achieve much the same result with standard manufacturer gear.

    An upmarket , aftermarket system , makes sense as part of an overall perfomance upgrade plan, but spend your money on other things that really make it necessary first!.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    A thought for Pugsly.

    Pugsly , you've had this problem with idle drop off etc for more than two months now. It seems pretty clear that there is a problem that really needs fixing.

    Before you go shopping for aftermarket exhausts, etc etc etc, why don't you get it sorted.

    If you were me, I'd be doing the following:

    1) I'd ring the Peugeot distributors head office and ask them for their thoughts on the problem. If they couldn't tell me I'd keep on pestering them until they found someone who could..

    2) I'd ring around the good Peugeot fixers - doesn't matter where they are - Regan's , French Connection etc in Melbourne, P504 in Sydney etc etc - I'm sure we could come up with quite a few between us - and ask them what they think the problem is likely to be.

    3) I'd ring Bosch

    4) I';d ring the technical section at the NRMA or the RACV

    5) I'd ring academic institutions that train people in car repairs - try the local CAE

    6) I'd get a full computer test done on the vehicle

    Hey - the phone calls might cost $50 if you ring interstate but that's cheap compared to the price of aftermarket parts.

    This problem of yours is almost certainly something comparatively small. Fixing it will probably have a bigger impact than spending lots of money on something large!

    Cheers

    Rod
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  16. #16
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    Rod Hagen:
    By and large exhaust systems in good modern cars (like Peugeots) are pretty well tuned to the existing engine set-up. Fitting afer market systems may actually reduce performance unless you have have made other changes.

    Sure, there may be other reasons for fitting them (cosmetics, or you like the sound of them etc etc) , but unless you are doing other serious tuning mods - like changes to cams, pistons, heads etc etc, you probably won't achieve any performance improvement at all and you may well reduce it.
    Rod, can you offer me an example of a car that had a reduction in performance by replacing an OE muffler with a higher flowing unit?

    Of late, the part of the exhaust that OE manufacturers concentrate on mostly, when it comes to tuning, is the headers. The rest, although mostly adequate, is a compromise in order to try and comply with regulations (ie reducing noise and emmissions) and reduce cost.

    Commonly, European mufflers are restrictive (they have been shown to have high backpressure). This is evident in the Autospeed muffler test where they tested a late model Golf's muffler.

    After the tuned section of an exhaust (ie the headers) the theory that backpressure is vital for low end power and torque is a fallacy. Exhaust scavenging is assisted by exhaust velocity, not backpressure. A perfect exhaust will be designed to maximise exhaust gas velocity and minimise backpressure.

    By replacing elements in an exhaust system that induce backpressure, you will yield a performance improvement (and usually, in turn, increase the noise output.)

    Substantial power improvements are seen when cat converters are illegally removed, or for racing purposes. On that premise, you can see why the replacement of restrictive mufflers or piping beyond the exhaust header will yield an improvement in power.

    As a side note, from what I've seen the exhaust underneath my Peugeot looks very good. The piping looks to be high quality steel, of around 2 /14 or 2 1/2 inch diameter and is mandrel bent. However, my personal belief (and a commonly held one at that) is that the replacement of the catalytic converter with a larger diameter unit will serve as an aid to reduce backpressure. The catalytic converter is commonly the most restrictive element on most modern cars. A larger chamber directly after the header downpipe serves as a low pressure area, and can have a mild supercharging effect (assisting scavenging). Asides from that, the only other element I will give attention is the rear muffler, which is not a straight-through type. Straight-through mufflers have been shown to have the best muffling and flow properties. These modifications will reduce backpressure, however will not have a negative impact on exhaust velocity.

    cheers,
    Adrian

    <small>[ 16 April 2002, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: ntrx ]</small>

  17. #17
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    rod,
    with regards to having the problem looked at, i've spoken to the guy at colliers and he said it sounds like something that he's seen before but you can't really test for it, just have to replace the part(speed sensor in the gearbox). I don't want ot just replace this part and hope for the best. I did take it to the dealer in granville and the only error that came up was an open circuit on the o2 sensor. they replaced the o2 sensor and he saidthat should fix the prblem, but it hasn't($500!). I'm thinking twice before taking it back there because they charge $109/hour labour. I've spoken to essccargo, they haven't seen this before. But i've read the same problem/symtoms in the peugeot newsgroup in google but none of them had an answer. I'm going to take it to the local mechanic who was recommended to me so he can perform a vacuum test. I've also looked on the bosch website and called a bosch service centre and they said they probably can look at it but weren't going to give me any answers to what it may be. I'm prob going to join the peugoet car club of nsw just so i can ask anyone there. This problem is really getting on my nerves, but i don't want to fork out hundreds with people replacing things willy nilly


    I found this on <a href="http://autorepair.about.com/library/ts/bl303i.htm" target="_blank">http://autorepair.about.com/library/ts/bl303i.htm</a>

    Car stalls when stopped quickly:
    You are driving along and everything is just fine... until you let off the gas pedal and apply the brakes. The engine starts shaking and may even stall. Not a good thing to happen because you lose power steering when the engine dies.

    Possible causes:

    There may be a serious vacuum leak: Check and replace vacuum lines as required.

    There may be a fault in the computerized engine control system: Check engine control systems with a scan tool. Test circuits and repair or replace components as required. (Generally not a DIY job)

    Broken linkage: Repair or replace as required.
    -----
    Hopefully it turns out to be a vacuum leak

    <small>[ 17 April 2002, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Pugsly ]</small>

  18. #18
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'm with Rod,

    I've read several MAX Power maganzines. Apparantly the standard factory exhaust was so good on 205GTI's, that all aftermarket exhausts/mufflers/headers/extractors actualy REDUCED output

    A car looses a lot of low down power with a low restriction exhaust. Don't believe me??? Well bring your car over, I drop under 'er and chop the exhaust off just after the manifold :p :p I've driven many cars (lotso padock bombs) with NO exhausts, the ONLY exception I've ever found where little back pressure didn't reduce power down low, was a two stroke motorcross bike I used to have eek! eek!

    I find it gives a little more power way up in the rev range (you know up past 5,000rpm where you never get to use in normal driving anyway )

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  19. #19
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    Double Chevron - perhaps the standard 205GTi exhaust offered little to no backpressure, and aftermarket exhausts that were way too big lowered exhaust gas velocity, and in turn scavenging benefits. What were the exhausts they point on? Were they custom developed ones with a little thought put into them, or oversized, shiny brand name ones with lots of marketing hype behind them?

    By removing the exhaust pipe after the manifold you lose all gas velocity, which is what precisely what I'm against. Replace my entire exhaust with a straight 2.5" pipe with no mufflers, and I'm sure there'd be an improvement!

    Try blocking half of your exhaust tip to increase backpressure, and tell me if you have any more low end power! The so-called advantages of backpressure are based on old hot-rodder wives tales from the 50s and they are a fallacy.

    A revised exhaust system including downpipe and cat on the 306 GTi6 has increased power at the wheels by 7kw - on a dyno.

    On my last car, I increased my performance enough to reduce my 0-100 acceleration by half a second by replacing the headers and exhaust. The standard system was appalling, I will admit, however my point still stands.

  20. #20
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    I thought I'd add this - it is my thought that the concept of backpressure is commonly confused with exhaust gas velocity.

    If you shove on a 3" straight through exhaust on a 1.3L Daihatsu Charade, the performance may very well drop and you could easily assume that backpressure is a good thing.

    But in reality, the standard system was better only because it allowed the gases to flow through at a higher velocity. Perhaps experimentation with a 2" exhaust and better mufflers would have been an appropriate starting point.

    What I am all about is finding the perfect medium, and from what I've experienced, many car manufacturers do not have the time or budget to find it whilst complying to strict worldwide regulations.

    Peugeot, so it seems, has some special exceptions!

  21. #21
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Back to the problem of revs dropping off and sometimes stalling; I have had this happen to me a few times aswell. Probably not enough to make me too worried though. To me it seems like the ECU just goes to sleep and does not kick in the idle thing-a-ma-gig. Perhaps there is some mechanical part which is sticking.

    I find it mostly happens right after the engine has been left during a hot day, so its not 'cold' just warmish.

    I am pretty sure I dont have a vacume problem as all the vacume system comming off the top of the head vacume pump was checked when i got the solenoids and diaphrams replaced. If we both have we should assume it is an issue with a common element.
    Is the ECU the same?
    What about fuel delivery, may be that?

    I how bout you trouble shoot this one for me and ill get mine done too.
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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Well i'm just going through all the suggestions people have posted on the web, tomorrow i will get a replacement air filter, only $40 so worth a shot. I'll try anything at the moment as long as it doesn't cost too much.

    A lady from Trivett Classic/Asquith and Johnstone Peugeot servicing called me today and asked if i was happy about hte service i received. I told her about how i had the o2 sensor replaced and forked over $500 bucks and that didn't fix the problem like the guy said it would. I told her i was having 2nd thoughts about taking teh car back because of the labour charge but she said just tell them that i don't think i should pay for the labour as i paid it the first time. she didn't say that would work but it doesn't hurt to try.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Pugsly,

    If the dealer diagnosed the problem as the O2 sensor, replaced it and it didn't fix the problem, I would think you have a very strong case to have any subsequent work done free of charge, or, at least, a right to a refund of the cost of the original work (both parts and labour).

    I suspect that a small claims tribunal would see it this way too. (It might be different if YOU decided that the problem was the o2 sensor, and simply asked them to replace it)

    If I were you I would be demanding that the matter be dealt with BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE. If you fiddle around with other things or go to other service centres who do further work on the car it muddies the water and leaves open an opportunity for the argument to be raised that the later work has itself caused the problem.

    If A&J won't come to the party, then get in touch with the NRMA (assuming you are a member) and ask them for a legal opinion on the problem. A&J make a representation on their web site that "you will find tremendous value for money at Asquith & Johnstone" . Clearly, if you pay $500 to have a problem resolved and it isn't fixed you have not received this. - see <a href="http://www.asquithandjohnstone.com.au/asquith/asquith_service.html" target="_blank">http://www.asquithandjohnstone.com.au/asquith/asquith_service.html</a>

    I'd be pretty confident that they will come to the party and fix the problem if you stick to your guns. Its simply not worth it for them risk reputation in a situation like this.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 18 April 2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  24. #24
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    Rod, you're a champ!! i think i will go back to Asquith and give them your phone number so you can talk to them!
    I deffinitely did not tell them the O2 sensor needed replacing, they told me.
    but i've already changed the airfilter this morning, i don't think they can use this against me, it is a genuine filter and a no brainer to replace. I shall make some time next week and bring my car in! thanks for the load of confidence!!
    A&J, watch out! evil
    but who knows, maybe they will not charge me extra

  25. #25
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    NTRX,

    I'm glad to read that somebody understands the difference between backpressure effects and scavenging effects. Thanks for your intelligent comments on this issue.

    I'm sick of hearing other people say you need "backpressure" for low down torque. What a load of crap. Backpressure results in pumping losses in the engine and can only result in torque LOSS.

    You've hit the nail on the head by pointing out that it's loss of scavenging (which increases backpressure) which results in reduced torque, as sometimes happens if too large a pipe is used before the first muffler/expansionbox/cat, or if the pipe is cut off just after the manifold. After the first muffler/expansion box/cat, it doesn't matter how large you go, it won't hurt performance (just your ears). An exception to this can be with some straight through mufflers which don't act as an expansion box and sometimes allow the pressure wave to propagate into the pipe beyond the muffler, resulting in it being necessary for the whole length of the exhaust system and diameter of the pipe to be tuned for scavenging. I think this is rear however. With most exhaust systems, the scavenging effect applies only to the pipe before the first muffler/expansionbox/cat and after that the bigger the better (for power, not your ears).

    Often, however, when you consider the cost to your wallet and the cost to your ears versus the performance gain it works out best to have either a standard diameter system with high flowing mufflers or a system which is only slightly larger in diameter than standard. I've found that the 2.25" mandrel bent system on my 504 is only just withing my limits of bearability soundwise. I think I could have got as much noticeable performance gain with a 1.75" press bent system (stock is 1.625") and had a much quieter and cheaper system. Obviously, if my engine produced 130hp+ the 2.25" system would have given a bigger performance gain than it did.

    The advantage of a twin exhaust system is that you can keep the diameter smaller and have plenty of mufflers, while reducing backpressure (because it's like resistors in parallel), although it is expensive so it's rare to see on an inline 4 cylinder car.

    I'm surprised to read about the Genie straight through mufflers being quiet. The ones I tried (a decade ago) were bloody noisy, and didn't flow too well due to the flutes being punched inwards into the pipe. I've found the Walker Super Turbo tri-flow muffler (not the noisy straight through version) to give good sound supression whilst flowing better than standard (larger internal diameter, no flutes punched inwards, etc) and they've also got a nice galvanised coating, although I have heard the internals sometimes come loose earlier than in other mufflers.

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