induction upgrade for 405?
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  1. #1
    Tadpole Houdini's Avatar
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    induction upgrade for 405?

    Hi,
    I have been slowly reading through posts to find if this has been mentioned before but....
    Does anyone know what the best way to upgrade the air filter on a 405 MI16 is? I have read bits here and there about how if you go with something like a K&N you need to induct cold air. Is there some way around this or is the cold air induction/pod way the best?

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    personally i think Cold Air induction is the best method of changin your incduction, as oppesed to a Pod filter - drawing in hot air.

    what's your budget like? you can spend quita abit on induction pieces....

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Don't waste your money trying to improve the intake on an Mi16. It's already cold, and has more volume than the engine can use. Replacement filters are $26, or if you must, buy a replacement K&N filter that fits in the original housing. If you want more hp, fix the exhaust. If you want more torque, advance the inlet cam 4 degrees.

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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Mi16 Man's Avatar
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    PeterT - here here on your response.

    Houdini, if you are keen, take the whole OEM air filter assembly off one day (not a windy one for the leaf factor) and take the car for a short run. I took the air cleaner assembly of leaving on the crankcase pipe and the main 3-4" hoses which runs to the butterfly throttle. I pointed it down away from the engine areas (heat). It was alot noiser (not a bad thing!) but made NO DIFFERENCE to throttle response, power, driveability. I have spoken to ESSCARGO and they have advised that a kit could me made up for a Mi16 if you want but you would lose the cold air factor.

    The time and effort that 'Peugeot' went to in designing the Mi16 intake plumbing is fantastic. We have direct cold air (higher up away from the hot tarmac or water spray) thru the grille running straight to the filter. There is a resonator box bolted to the side (to quieten the induction noise) to lessen NVH levels. Then you have a large diameter rubber hose running to the throttle. There are no kinks, sharp bends and the inside of the plastic/rubber is very smooth to increase airflow.

    I do not think that any 'Rice' manufacturere goes to any similar length to tune there engines for the power and drivability that Peugeot's go to. They know what they are doing and as they say, "Engineered to be enjoyed (and go like a bat outta hell!)"

    Thats my 2c!
    Cheers
    Stu G. head_ban

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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    i got a BMC Carbon Fibre Cold Air induction on mine, it feeds straight from my front bar and has amde a noticable difference. It has opened up the higher revs, and it breather much easier and seems to bit snappier!

    Julian

  6. #6
    Cal
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    I removed all of the standard induction plumbing on mine and replaced it with a small K&N pod, mounted on a custom made bracket. I then took cold air from the factory inlet at the grill. I attached some 10cm diameter flexable tubing to this inlet and directed it to the filter. It is not sealed off from the engine bay like an air box is, but would receive an increasing amount of cool air flow as speed increases. I really don't think it improved performance at all. Fuel economy is a little better but I did plugs and leads at the same time. The sound in combination with a high flow cat and a 2 1/2 inch system is awesome. For this reason I feel it is a worth while modification. I will try to get my hands on a digital camera to take a photo for you.

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  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Houdini - do a search on this forum on 'manometer' and you'll find a technique to test whether the inlet is posing any noticable restriction. As a benchmark, a 14 inches of water on a manometer hooked up to the inlet works out as a 0.5 psi restriction, and will not offer a noticable difference if you set about making it flow better (unless you can get it absolutely perfect and feel ~2hp at the wheels). I'd say it's probably pretty damn good as it is.

    Xsara - dude, the Mi16 is making 160hp from 1.9L, the intake setup is probably OK.

    Cal - directing cold air at a filter simply does not work, it needs to be sealed. You may actually find an improvement here if you find a way to do it, but was there a requirement for it in the first place....

    Cheers
    Adrian

  8. #8
    Tadpole Houdini's Avatar
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    "If you want more hp, fix the exhaust. "

    Thanks for the advice - I think I'll leave it as is. I need to replace the centre muffler as it's baffles are a bit loose and so it's a good excuse to improve the system. Any suggestions as to what to put on?
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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Throw away everything from the cat. back. Add a 2.25" system with a new resonator behind the cat, and a new straight through rear muffler. Word of warning however, make sure the rear muffler has a larger enough volume. My exhaust guru did a fair amount of research before coming up with a big enough unit. From memory it's 21" x OD6".

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  10. #10
    Cal
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    ntrx:
    Cal - directing cold air at a filter simply does not work, it needs to be sealed. You may actually find an improvement here if you find a way to do it, but was there a requirement for it in the first place....

    Cheers
    Adrian
    I realise that sealing it would be the preferred solution. I am still thinking about how I am going to inclose the whole filter. I think the ducting I have is better than nothing. The filter is in the very corner of the engine bay as far away from heat as it could be. That said, it still gets very hot under there. If the pipe wasn't bringing any cold air in, the same would be true for brake cooling ducts under the front of a car, redirecting air to the discs.

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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Yep - of course! Certainly will be better than nothing.

    As opposed to brakes though, if a motor is going strong it will be drawing in air from any old place, not just the part of the filter where the ducting is pointed towards it - that's one reason why sealed systems are so much more effective.

    And I'm only nit picking now, so please don't think I'm a total bastard... wink but standard intake pickups are only very effective when connected to the sealed inlet piping as the engine is drawing in the air (due to atmospheric pressure trying its darndest to fill up the combustion chamber space) - it's not flowing in there because of the air pickup.

    But with nothing attached, typically standard intake pickups (at least the ones on 306 are on the LHS in front of the radiator, pointing downwards) aren't that brilliant as they do not have a large, flanged opening pointed in the direction of the airflow - they typically don't need it as the engine does all of the work... whereas brake ducts normally do have these features.

    That being said, a large, flanged opening in the direction of the airflow would be more effective and probably more than adequate at speed.

  12. #12
    Cal
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    Can someone please explain in English how to post an image from my computer.

    Cal.
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  13. #13
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Cal:
    Can someone please explain in English how to post an image from my computer.

    Cal.
    Cal,

    Check this out it may help <a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/files/Posting_Pics_for_Dummies_2.doc" target="_blank">Posting Pics for Dummies</a>

    Cheers
    Chris
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  14. #14
    Cal
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    Thanks for the info. The image in not on the web, so unless I can upload it somewhere, I won't worry about it.

    Cal.
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  15. #15
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Cal:
    Thanks for the info. The image in not on the web, so unless I can upload it somewhere, I won't worry about it.

    Cal.
    Cal, email to me greenblood@aussiefrogs.com and we'll sort it out wink

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  16. #16
    Cal
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    <img src="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/~greenblood/images/K&N.JPG" alt=" - " />

    Ok, thanks to Greenblood, I can post the image I was taking about the other day.

    As I was saying, it brings outside air in from the factory inlet. Perhaps less than ideal because it is not sealed from the rest of the engine bay. Sounds great if not really making any noticeable performance gain. I am open to suggestions as to make it into a cold air box.

    Cal.
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  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    How about an aluminium plate that surrounds it on one side (tb side)?

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Following on from Andreas' advice, I'd use aluminium or a plastic panel with a hole cut in it so that it rests in between the clamp and the lip next to the actual filter.

    You could have the panel go from in between the battery and the water reservoir then up to the headlight. Then you could cut another hole in it for that tubing to go through.

    Similarly, you may even be able to cover the top of it going from the battery to the headlight.

    Do you have a photo of the inlet pickup?

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    although this pic ins't of a Pug, nor even a Euro car. It will give you an idea of an alluminium sheilding.

    <img src="http://www.aresspeed.com.au/images/geek2_2.jpg" alt=" - " />

    <img src="http://www.aresspeed.com.au/gallery/honda/civic-92/geek2%20engine%20bay2.JPG" alt=" - " />

    <small>[ 24 September 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Xsara ]</small>

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Xsara,

    That is hardly an air "box". As far as my understaning of things like that is that would be the heat shield and not much more. What Peter and NTRX are talking about would be positive flow into the airbox (ie not forced by engine vacum)making it easier for the engine to suck air.
    The colder the air the better...
    Cal could you make a cardboard box with holes cut in right places? if it works maybe then u could laminate it with fibreglass repair kits.
    just an idea.

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  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i would house the filter and then plumb the cold air hose you have into the housing
    yes you might loose your induction noise but i think the cold air would work a lot better
    my 2 cents anyway
    if i get time this week i'll get the camera out and get pics of what i did to the 604 for cold air with an escort air cleaner
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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    tekkie:
    Xsara,

    That is hardly an air "box". As far as my understaning of things like that is that would be the heat shield and not much more.
    just an idea.

    i was meerly showing a heat sheild... i am aware of what an airbox is (i have Cold Air Induction). Justs ofering alternatives and suggestions.

  23. #23
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    tekkie:
    Xsara,

    That is hardly an air "box". As far as my understaning of things like that is that would be the heat shield and not much more. What Peter and NTRX are talking about would be positive flow into the airbox (ie not forced by engine vacum)making it easier for the engine to suck air.
    The colder the air the better...
    Cal could you make a cardboard box with holes cut in right places? if it works maybe then u could laminate it with fibreglass repair kits.
    just an idea.

    Tekkie, sort of.. what I was trying to say is the inlet pickup is probably ineffective used on it's own like this. It was never designed to be a ram-air setup - manufacturers normally shy away from this as you get too much crud in your filter.

    Not to say there's anything wrong with it, when it's hooked up to a sealed inlet system, atmospheric pressure will force the air through it because the engine has a volume to fill.

    If the inlet pickup is large, flanged, and pointed forwards in the direction of the airflow - then a heatshield setup with cold air hose pointed to it will have some benefit.

    (But if there's nothing wrong with the standard setup, it's all going backwards anyhow. I'd test the standard setup and make modifications from there.)

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