What Performance from 205 MI16?
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    Fellow Frogger! WRX2PUG's Avatar
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    What Performance from 205 MI16?

    Those lucky ones amongst us that have a 205 with MI16 motor , can you give me some idea of what performance you are seeing - ie has anyone done a 1/4 mile and/or got any dyno figures? dance

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    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    I remember jr's 205 Mi16 had about 90-93kw at the wheels. Don't know what times he was pulling but they would have to be around 7-8 seconds 0-100
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    I think it'd have to be closer to low or flat 7s considering the weight and power, and very low 15s.

    Mine is closer to 8 seconds with a shade under 91kw at the wheels, and a fat 1215kg of weight. 205s are pretty light!

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    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Unfortuntely MI16 engines are rare and come at a high cost in Australia....

    I'd still argue unless you plan on spending (much)more than $5-6000, which is probably around what you are looking at to buy and have someone fit a secondhand (10+yr old!!) mi16 engine, anything up to that amount is better spent and will see better returns on an 8V........

    Spend $5 or 6000 on an 8V you'll have a pretty hot reco'd engine that should beat a stock mi16 engine, especially a secondhand mi16 with 150,000+km on it....

    I don't pretend for a second that the 8v has anything like the ultimate output potential of the mi16.....just that it will cost alot of money to see that potential over an 8v
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 05:41 AM.

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    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    yeah it's well known that a standard mi16 isn't as good as a worked 8v.
    some might even claim that a standard 8v is just as good in a 205.

    I wish Murat hadn't sold his 205 yet, in a few months a 205 may be on my shopping list.

    Anyone want to buy a (completely standard haha)405 mi16, driven only to church on sundays....driven how it should be driven every other day. head_ban

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    Are you intested in selling the engine seperately? roll_lau

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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 05:41 AM.

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    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    DTwo:
    Are you intested in selling the engine seperately? roll_lau

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    Thanks guys - agreed re a well-tuned 8v vs standard MI16.

    That said, I have an opportunity to buy a 205 with an MI16, quad throttle-bodies and LSD already installed so rather than do it all myself, this provides a good start. head_ban Having driven the car the other day, it did go well but difficult to tell how quick it really is or is capable of being, once tuned.

    To be competitive in club-level motorsport, I am trying to produce something that will get close to 13-14 sec 1/4 mile times and am trying to get a feel for whether this is feasible, hence the question re people that already have one tongue
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    Mi16 with throttle bodies and lsd would be WAAAAAY quick. If it's a resonable price grab it!!!!!!
    Standard 205 Mi16 (standard??? eek!
    ) will do 1/4 in 15 sec flat. For all the info your could ever wish for on Mi16 205s visit:

    <a href="http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/default.asp" target="_blank">205 GTi Driver Forum</a>

    and

    <a href="http://www.205gti.com" target="_blank">205GTi.com</a>

    I'm currently doing this conversion, I plan to take her down the 1/4 mile when completed, so I'll let you know then, say in about 2 months!!!!

    Izza

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    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    WRX2PUG:

    That said, I have an opportunity to buy a 205 with an MI16, quad throttle-bodies and LSD already installed so rather than do it all myself, this provides a good start.
    Is that the white one with the Wolf 3D, big brake kit and gutmann body kit?
    [edit] Is it Jeff Ash's car?

    Andreas

    <small>[ 11 September 2002, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ]</small>

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    Andreas:
    WRX2PUG:

    That said, I have an opportunity to buy a 205 with an MI16, quad throttle-bodies and LSD already installed so rather than do it all myself, this provides a good start.
    Is that the white one with the Wolf 3D, big brake kit and gutmann body kit?
    [edit] Is it Jeff Ash's car?

    Andreas
    Yeah and what was his phone number again?...lol! That should not be quick, that should tear the bitumen off the road! Buy it, buy it!!!

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    Andreas:
    WRX2PUG:

    That said, I have an opportunity to buy a 205 with an MI16, quad throttle-bodies and LSD already installed so rather than do it all myself, this provides a good start.
    Is that the white one with the Wolf 3D, big brake kit and gutmann body kit?
    [edit] Is it Jeff Ash's car?

    Andreas
    ... wow! whatta machine... i think this is the same 205 that was featured in Fast fours several years back (resides in WA and was an importer of Gutmann kits). From memory, apart from all the go-fast bits, it also had a full leather interior and white colour-coded everything. Wonder how much the dood is hocking his "open leg factor of ten" for?
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    Izza:
    Mi16 with throttle bodies and lsd would be WAAAAAY quick. If it's a resonable price grab it!!!!!!
    Standard 205 Mi16 (standard??? eek!
    ) will do 1/4 in 15 sec flat. For all the info your could ever wish for on Mi16 205s visit:

    <a href="http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/default.asp" target="_blank">205 GTi Driver Forum</a>

    and

    <a href="http://www.205gti.com" target="_blank">205GTi.com</a>

    I'm currently doing this conversion, I plan to take her down the 1/4 mile when completed, so I'll let you know then, say in about 2 months!!!!

    Izza

    '92 205 Mi16
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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Izza:

    Standard 205 Mi16 (standard??? eek!
    ) will do 1/4 in 15 sec flat.

    <a href="http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/default.asp" target="_blank">205 GTi Driver Forum</a>

    and

    <a href="http://www.205gti.com" target="_blank">205GTi.com</a>

    I'm currently doing this conversion, I plan to take her down the 1/4 mile when completed, so I'll let you know then, say in about 2 months!!!!

    Izza
    I've had a ride in Owen Wuillemin's 205/16V, and with it's ultra close box and 4.43 diff, it felt more like a low 14 car. Owen and Andrian are currently lapping Eastern Creek in 1:56. Awesome for a stock engine. Mark Skaiffe once punted a GTi6 around the same in 2:03, in a Bang for your Bucks article. Wheels I think.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    DTwo:
    Unfortuntely MI16 engines are rare and come at a high cost in Australia....

    I'd still argue unless you plan on spending (much)more than $5-6000, which is probably around what you are looking at to buy and have someone fit a secondhand (10+yr old!!) mi16 engine, anything up to that amount is better spent and will see better returns on an 8V........

    Spend $5 or 6000 on an 8V you'll have a pretty hot reco'd engine that should beat a stock mi16 engine, especially a secondhand mi16 with 150,000+km on it....

    I don't pretend for a second that the 8v has anything like the ultimate output potential of the mi16.....just that it will cost alot of money to see that potential over an 8v
    If you go back through this forum, you'll find some 80-120 times. Jame's highly modified 405 8V was slower than my lightly modified Mi16. A 150K 16V is not an issue(my car is still for sale.)It will still have honing marks on the bore. From my experience, 16V performance starts, where 8V finishes.

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    PeterT:
    DTwo:
    Unfortuntely MI16 engines are rare and come at a high cost in Australia....

    I'd still argue unless you plan on spending (much)more than $5-6000, which is probably around what you are looking at to buy and have someone fit a secondhand (10+yr old!!) mi16 engine, anything up to that amount is better spent and will see better returns on an 8V........

    Spend $5 or 6000 on an 8V you'll have a pretty hot reco'd engine that should beat a stock mi16 engine, especially a secondhand mi16 with 150,000+km on it....

    I don't pretend for a second that the 8v has anything like the ultimate output potential of the mi16.....just that it will cost alot of money to see that potential over an 8v
    If you go back through this forum, you'll find some 80-120 times. Jame's highly modified 405 8V was slower than my lightly modified Mi16. A 150K 16V is not an issue(my car is still for sale.)It will still have honing marks on the bore. From my experience, 16V performance starts, where 8V finishes.
    Totally agree.
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    Performance figures aside for a moment,

    I don't know how many people would be happy spending $5000+ on a car which these days in "absolute" mint condition is worth $15,000 or so to have a secondhand engine in their car.

    At 150,000km (which is probably a little optimistic) a mi16 engine i'd think would be in middle age at best....it's come out of a car which is likely to have been driven reasonably hard....and it is going into another car to likely be driven even harder add to this the fact that the engine is likely to be 10 or more yrs old and it's looks less appealing........

    I don't doubt they will last forever, hell the 8vs last forever too if you can put up with the oil consumption and smoke .....

    My arguement is pragmatic, I think if someone were to spend that percentage of the vehicle's worth on an engine surely the engine would be rebuilt?....maybe i'm wrong, maybe some people would be happy spending so much to have a used engine put in their car?

    If the mi16 engine is rebuilt I believe the figures change significantly.

    Performance wise,
    As an extreme example, For $5000+ does anyone think turboing an 8v is impossible? (murat?), and does anyone really think that a turbo 8v won't beat a 150,000+km mi16 engine?
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 05:41 AM.

  18. #18
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    yeah Jeffs car is pretty sweet, was featured in the WRX special Fast Fours some years back, I think he's importing Jap cars now, saw an article with him in a nissan stagea in high performance imports..that car should be pretty darn quick....
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    DTwo:
    At 150,000km (which is probably a little optimistic) a mi16 engine i'd think would be in middle age at best
    I my experience, wet liner equipped engines show almost no sign of wear at 150,000km. I just pulled down a 504 engine which had done about 250,000km or so, and it barely had any sign of a lip developing in the bore, and the honing marks were still apparent. It still had as-new compression readings (165psi). This was an engine which I reved to 6500rpm every chance I had for the preceding 120,000km.

    I don't think that I would be scared of using an Mi16 engine with less than 250,000km on it, providing that I changed the timing belt. I would of course, do a compression check before installing it in the car. The only thing I would be worried about would be the valve stem seals.

    The comment about 16V performance starting where 8V ends, only really applies to "big valve" performance oriented 16V engines like the Mi16 engine and the Toyota 4AGE. "Small valve" economy "swirl" enhancing 16V engines like the Toyota 4AFE, the Ford Zetec and the 2.2 Camry engine don't make any more power than a good 8V, but they do blow an 8V away in the economy stakes (like 40mpg out of a 1300kg Ford Mondeo in mixed city driving -amazing!).

    Dave

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Spending $1500 on new cams for a Mi16 will produce more hp than the equivalent (or more) spent on an 8V. The problem however, regardless of which type, is that you have to spend a lot more on either to make big hp. The std. 205/405 injectors are only good for 160hp. Then you'll need a good 3D computer, and so the list goes on. Keeping this in mind, dropping a std. Mi16 engine and gearbox into a 205 is a very cost effective solution.

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    Cal
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    Where is the figure of $5000 for an MI16 engine coming from? I was looking around for a second hand engine for mine about two years ago and found one for $2000. Mine had got water in the inlet, had a bent rod and a cracked pistion. I ended up rebuilding it for just on $1300. That included full balancing and also having the head rebuilt by Chilton Engineering. Therefore you should be able to purchase and rebuild one for under $3500. There is a 205 MI16 conversion kit available out of the UK which includes the extractors and short inlet manifold. I can't remember how much it costs. This has got to be more reliable and tractable horsepower than a turbo 8 valve. Not to mention, cheaper to insure and easier to register. I know what I would rather have.

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    I've been quoted a minimum of $5000 for purchase and installation of a secondhand mi16 engine by two seperate peugeot mechanics, admittedly that's a drive in drive out quote with no work performed by myself.

    A conversion kit for a 205 costs ?655 from <a href="http://www.pugspares.co.uk/Mi16Display.asp" target="_blank">Pugspares</a> in the UK
    and contains,
    Exhaust Manifold
    Inlet Manifold
    Distributor Converter
    Plug Lead Set
    Lower Engine Mount
    Delimited ECU

    gee, where were all these everlasting 405mi16 engines when I was looking yrs ago?, I found some very tired and smokey 170,000+km mi16 engines.....obviously poorly maintained and driven into the ground, but i saw enough of them to confidently say not all mi16 engines are in "as new" condition at 150,000+km....

    An all out 8v (for road use) with a rally style cam, a big valve head, throttle bodies and aftermarket ecu is good for a "fairly tractable" 180hp (130odd kw) according to <a href="http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug2058v.htm" target="_blank">PumaRacing</a>

    An all out mi16 (for road use) with similar mods as the 8v above is good for 225hp at 8000rpm (160oddkw eek! )according to <a href="http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm" target="_blank">PumaRacing</a> they also suggest only 7-15% of stock (150oddhp/110ishkw for aus models) output can be gained by cams alone.....which is pretty decent.

    It's all about how deep your pockets are and how much power you need in the end.....and how much you care about bottom end torque....

    For me, I think the purchase/rebuild/conversion costs are better spent on the existing engine, we might just have to agree to disagree on this one

    But if you absolutely, positively have to scare the bejesus out of most stock WRX and 200sx owners at any cost......I guess the MI16 is definately the go.....

    edit : broken link

    <small>[ 13 September 2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: DTwo ]</small>
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 05:42 AM.

  23. #23
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    i got a genuine 6.8 sec from my 20516v running the 14" wheels, a bit slower when i put on the 16's. As far as the quarter times go havent a clue but on the few times i gave it some stick there was 3 memorable occasions. 1st. stayed beside a rex from standstill to 200k's then pure aerodynamics took over. 2nd.same as above but with a skyline gtst [r33] but went to 230 k's and lastly a golf vr6..you should have seen their faces, worth a million$$ of course i had the pommie 16v donk which helps and been lightened.
    now i've joined the infidels with a gti-r but i still have my 8v 205. love that car!!
    jr20516v

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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! WRX2PUG's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the helpful feedback and info guys I got a little interrupted by the birth of our baby boy on Thursday - he came a little earlier than expected and I delivered him on the freeway - no jokes !! dance - just like his Dad - just had to do it in the car tongue

    Anyway - d will let you know how I go with the 205-MI16

    Cheers
    Steve
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  25. #25
    Cal
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    Congratulations Steve.

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