Supercharging
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Thread: Supercharging

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    Supercharging

    Murat, jr and all you other experts, here's a question for you.
    how wild can the cams be before the supercharger isn't beneficial?
    Let's say for instance that a certain mi16 owner with a slightly worked motor wanted some more mid range torque and was thiking about a superchrger, what would you tell him?
    I'm not naming anyone here
    Now i assume the perfect spot on the mi16 for it is where the air con compressor is, right near the pulley and there are already holes in the block for mounting.
    this certain person already has a programmable ecu so that isnt a problem and understands a 5th injector will be needed, also not a problem.
    he also knows he needs to get an airbox.
    also take into account that this person doesnt hae the cam specs, what do you suggest. hehehe

    Andreas

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Too many variables. Current CR, amount of boost etc. If you've got a 10.4:1 motor you've probably got too much CR anyway. Aussie spec. 9.5:1 would be a good thing with low boost, if you can hang on to the torque steer. Buy Owen's 4x4 and supercharge it!

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    if the timing were right i'd consider Owen's 4x4, but i cant afford 2 cars, i wouldnt sell my mi16 just yet.

    I was very close to converting mine to 4x4 earlier this year, had all parts ordered but decided against it at the last minute.
    if i were to buy a 405 mi16x4 it wouldnt get a supercharger, it'd get a new motor...

    and yes, i do have the UK motor, 10.4:1

    Andreas

  4. #4
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    Andreas,

    From experience some engines work very well with mild and hot camshafts
    I know that all the experts say to much overlap and u stuff the incoming charge right out the exhaust so what u still gain big time higher up in the rev range with a hot camshaft we have done it so sometimes the software calcs expertise dont mean jack we have used E38 cams on a 265 Hemi and it boogied man
    U will need to lower the comp for sure as for it to be worthwhile so u can run some decent boost
    What sort of supercharger will he be using
    Roots Type
    Screw type
    Centrifugal type
    To be honest u need a lot of experience to turbo and supercharge engines and the car will need to go on a dyno (As peter mentioned
    there is a lot of variables in it).
    Apart from the power output u have to make sure the car behaves the same in the cold and hot weather
    Even experts do a dodgy job my friends brother had his v6 supercharged (Two blown headgaskets later it was sold off)

    Murat

  5. #5
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    Andreas,

    There is a good chance your cams will be ideal(u will have to try and see).
    It wont be much drama to change them anyway.
    I would try and get some set of injectors from a japenese car putting out the same sort of power u want from yours be care full when buying and check that your computer can run them
    Most likely u will be purchaceing a supercharger off a 2L jap toyota or mazda even
    The big job is in lowering the comp of your engine as it is way to high for the project to be worthwhile
    It will be a lot easier than turbocharging
    If u have patience after i get mine engineered i will build u a wicked turbo setup
    Mine should be ready in three weeks max

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Re the head gasket blowing, is "O" ringing the block going to work on these engines with sleeves to stop headgaskets blowing?..I was talking with a mechanic mate of mine (admitedly he knows litte about Pugs) and he seemed to think this would be ok for a sleeved motor.

    Would a copper decompresion plate work in this instance to lower the CR to about 9.5 to 1 ?....

    The 1ggze 2L engines and blowers from Toyota would be about the right size, but are getting scarce now due to the age of the motors. The 4AGZE unit may be a bit small as well.

    Murat, are you going to make a kit of some sorts for turboing a 205?

    Chip

  7. #7
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    Have alook at the Lancia volumex HPE engine. This is super charged, with a bit of mucking around with manifolds, and a throttle body (the hpe engine are down draft weber) and a smaller pulley for higher psi and decompression plate it would probably work.
    There is one doing the club circuit in the UK so if you enquire at ecosse or maxpugs you may find car.

    Good luck.

  8. #8
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    Chipper,

    You can O-ring a engine with liners if need be
    It depends how much boost u are going to run
    I would not recommend a lot of boost if u are going to keep your car reliable and fun
    I don't like like running spacer type head gaskets
    I woul'd rather get proper pistons
    The two cars that i have turboed i used forged pistons
    Chipper i am working on a couple of setups at the one time thats why i am taken so long
    I have put in so many hours it not funny
    The bigger than average turbo i am using needed a radical manifold and will need some other major mods like the expantion tank being redesigned
    I have been studying how they design expantion tanks on turbo porsche to keep from blowing headgaskets
    I am slowly putting together a website that will concentrate on high performance peugeots mainly turbo ones
    Am i making a low boost kit u will have to wait and see

    Murat

  9. #9
    jr
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    andreas, i am no ex-spurt[the girls think i'm a drip!!] however i asked my mechanic today for you [he does s/charges every day] he was of the opinion to junk the non gen.cam, lower the compression etc. this is he emphasised the cheaper way out but may lead too more problems down the track. the best way he said was to rebuild the motor from scratch to compliment the s/charger setup. i priced a 1ggze 2ltr last week, 2 in stock at $300 ea. have u thought of importing a 406sti turbo lump. no problems then, the factory has done it all for you!!

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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    thanks for all of your replies.
    jr, the 406 sti turbo motor is no good, apparently the pistons are pretty average, it's a low boost motor and with the standard internals 200bhp is alot, only 155bhp from a 2.0 8v turbo.
    i think i'll stick with what i've got for now, too many other mods still planned, once it's been feautured i'll think about the next car, maybe Murat will sell me his


    Andreas

  11. #11
    Tadpole
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    >>> Murat,Peter and James,u probably could help me out in fine tuning my setup.I had my XU9J2 blueprinted and balanced before slapping on the 1ggze roots blower on.The setup is on a drawthru via a dcoe 45 boosting a max of 5psi.The XU9 has all std parts ie pistons,conrods,liners,headgasket
    cr9.3 etc.Engine would still ping if boost were to be applied before 2000rpm on high engine temps (water 82deg,oil 93deg).This is despite the dizzy mod which had to be retarded (no vacuum adv)to suit.I did not see a way to intercool the charge.Can the original cam pulley be retarded (or advanced)by one timing belt tooth to further optimize this setup or at least handle the pinging?

    With the 5psi boost and cr 9.3,i'm probably seeing some 25% power improvement till the 4000rpm mark and after that,it becomes risky to push.I would like to pull the engine till 7000rpm on a NA mode right after 4000rpm but can't seem to as the ign timing has been strangled mechanically to support the charger.Any ideas here? How do i modify the 'ducellier' vacuum canister to have vacuum advance and boost retard functions? Thks mates.

    cheers

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Andreas.
    The cam timing ie, overlap will be the determining factor in CAM selection for the supercharged motor. My Renault 807 motor uses a Wade 154 grind with 20 deg overlap with the dizzy timing pegged at 29 deg total no vacuum at all this is not a road car & is running 10lb boost from the Toyota 4AGZE roots blower using the standard toyota pulleys with the centre of a R17 crank pulley fitted into the toyota pulley. Have a chat to the engineer who grinds the Cams not the salesman they don't know what they're on about.
    Damien
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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Puginfo,
    Have a look at the water injection info on my web site. The water cools the inlet charge as well as lowering the combustion chamber temp to below the pre-ignition level stopping the ping it also has a good boost to Hp and economy.
    <a href="http://www.geocities.com/blownrenault/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/blownrenault/index.html</a>
    Damien
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Puginfo,
    it would be heaps easier if you had fuel injection. However, I suggest purchasing a timing computer, or a second hand ecu. Haltech make an ignition only ecu which senses load by manifold vacuum/pressure. Alternatively, look on the second hand market for an E6 type Haltech, or a Motec. Second hand Haltechs appear regularly in the Trading Post. Motecs are rare.

    This will give you infinite control of ignition timing under all RPM and load situations, and still allow vacuum advance on cruise. I can email you the software if you like.

    From memory, one tooth equals 16 degrees crank. That much would be a disaster.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Hate being the one to bring up bad news but Pug FWD boxes aren't known for handling much more than 200 Bhp, in particular the drive shatfs, you could upgrade to Grp N stuff (or A) but thats big mula... more than the Turbo/Supercharger conversion itself...., just someting to consider....Stilll If eccose can do it so can we!! Xqisid
    ... ptui!

  16. #16
    Cal
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    Why doesn't someone just buy the ex 2L touring car that has been for sale in Brisbane for a while. It could be converted to a street car if you are a little mad. It cost $350k to build in the mid 90's and you can buy it now for around $20k.

    Cal.
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  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! WRX2PUG's Avatar
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    In terms of having over 200Bhp in a 205 - certainly my aim wink

    1) Is the MI16 gearbox any better at handling additional power?

    2) Do the driveshafts simply snap and is there a way of strengthening the existing driveshafts eg shot-peening or some other process?

    3) Besides the clutch - what are the other weak links that normally go in higher performance Pugs?

    Cheers
    Steve
    Renault Clio F1R27 road car and Supercharged Lotus Elise track car

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