YAY...Got some new Shocks
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  1. #1
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    YAY...Got some new Shocks

    I bit the bullet and lashed out on some replacement shocks for my S16 today. I have be thinking they were getting a bit sus. Oil was leaking from the right, and the left would make a dull thud over any major bumps. This was very noticable when going over speed bumps.

    Earlier this week i was looking into all the different types i could get. $300ea for Bilstein, $295ea for koni, $200ea for Sachs/Boge, or $160(right) $200(left) for the originals. No idea why they are different prices so if anyone knows, please tell.

    I went for the originals on the advise of Arthur from A&J Lewis in Wynnum, Brisbane. The koni's were not adjustable, so i figured the car was always a good handler and the people at Northshore did not recomend changing the originals except for track racing.

    Car went in today, and I checked in at 12.30. There was a bit of bad news. The lefthand bump stop was not too good and the top mount was a bit perished. The right side was fine. The bump stop could not be replaced as there was no part in Aust, so I left them to do at a later time.

    There is not a huge difference when driving normally around the burbs. On the freeway it's alot more responsive and a more refined ride generally over bumps in the road. And of course no thudding from the left side.

    So anyway, just thought i'd share my day with this crowd as my friends are rather boring when it comes to talking about cars.

    Have Fun

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    Brad
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    1994 MX5 Clubman...are you sure it's not French?

  2. #2
    Member george's Avatar
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    Brad, how much did they charge you for fitment?

    george

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    hey Phasis - glad to hear you stuck with the original items. I have the same shocks as you and I can never get over the handling/ride combination.

    One question - did the specialists say anything about using the standard shocks with aftermarket springs, and whether using other dampers (ie konis or bilsteins etc) would make a difference or last longer?

    Also, have you noticed an adjustment screw on top of the front shocks? It's an allen key head, similar to what I've seen on adjustable Bilsteins. I wonder what it does... ?

  4. #4
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    George, fittment was $150.

    NTRX, i made a lot of enquiries, in the end no one actually got back to me with alternatives. I knew the Bilstein and Konis were going to be almost twice as much, and after speaking to the people at northshore, for the S16's i was better to stick with the originals, like you siad, becasue the setup is just right.

    I have aftermarket springs, Eibach. Northshore said the single best thing you can do for the handleing is to put in lower springs. Word of warning though, there are a few drawbacks. The bump stop at the top of the shock gets a good workout. My left needs replaceing, and the springs will apparently make a slight noise through touching as the shock wave travels through it. I dont know if i can hear it or not, but there are some small marks on the springs as a result.

    The alan key at the top is not for adjusting. I had a look at the old ones when they came out and its actually cast into the top of the piston tube. So no luck there.

    My first post was only after driving home, but in the past few days, getting to go over some more roads to compare, there is actiualy quite alot of difference, which makes me happy

    Seems alot more sharper and refined, especially in unsmooth corners. I got a 4 wheel balance and alignment today so it should be all dialed-up and ready to cook.
    B to the R to the A from the D
    1994 MX5 Clubman...are you sure it's not French?

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger!
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    aaah niceness

    Tell us how it goes!

    When you get the aligment done, I'd be interested to know what settings they put on.

    With mine, the rear end was pretty well static and non-adjustable, with 2mm toe out and -1.5 camber on both wheels. I like the sound of this, but with the front they could not get neutral toe, only 1mm toe in (total, .5 each wheel).

    I was disappointed with this, and I'm wondering if they could get neutral toe/toe out on the front of yours at all?

    If so, I might see another wheel alignment place...

    The good news with the alignment is they did manage to get -0.5 camber on the front which was acceptable, and the difference after the alignment was stunning!

    cheers dude

    Adrian

  6. #6
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    really dont know about the setup. All i do know is that he put 0.4mm toe in on the fronts each. No alignment was done on the back. If u find a good seup, let me know and ill look at having it done.
    BTW, the streering wheel now has a slight tilt to the right on it when going straight, and it drifts slightly to the left with no pressure on the wheel.Ill have to take it back to get redone, which means if there is a good setup, ill get them to chnage it then.

    Brad
    B to the R to the A from the D
    1994 MX5 Clubman...are you sure it's not French?

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Phasis, you might already know this but basically for a performance biased alignment the most -ve camber and toe out you can go for at the front is optimal (there are limits, but you won't exceed them with the standard factory setup.)

    In my opinion, as much as you can get up to -2.0 degrees camber will benefit mid corner grip and not be too much of a sacrifice for a every day street car. Of course, it depends on what kind of a driver you are and what your priorities are (as I understand it, you're a bit of a hoon )

    Others prefer static camber to be closer to neutral in order to promote straight line grip on acceleration and braking, and suggest more positive castor is of benefit as the camber is effectively changed once the wheels are turned. Unfortunately the castor cannot be changed on our cars.

    I believe a bit of both is good. On long, gentle sweepers you'll find the wheel isn't actually turned that much, so a bit of static -ve camber is good.

    Unfortunately, with what you've said I'm starting to think the maximum toe out for the S16/GTi is still marginally toed in. If it's the case, I'd like to look into some alignment products to counter this.

    Toe in promotes stability in a straight line, toe out, if used in excess, may be darty in a straight line but turn in is especially confident and willing.

    Jeeez... I'm a blabbermouth.

  8. #8
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    All good info. I never really understood the pos/cons of toe in and out. I do know that camber gives better cornering, as more tyre comes in contact with the road. I might ask for neg. 1-1.25deg camber then if i take it back. Im sure its not aligned now, it definetely rode staight b4 i took it in.

    If what you are saying about toeing is correct, and i'm not doubting you, i might stick with what they set it at. Although i do like to get to the mountains when ever I can, most of my driving is on the freeway, therefore a slight toe in would be the best i think.

    Brad
    B to the R to the A from the D
    1994 MX5 Clubman...are you sure it's not French?

  9. #9
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    Yeah, I see what you're saying... never had any probs at all with zero toe though, and toe-in doesn't do good things for understeer and outer edge tyre wear. Really though, there's not much point in my saying this as they've probably got it as far as it will go.

    Re the neg camber - you'll find the max they can set is around -0.5, although your lowered springs may have changed the geometry for the better.

    cheers
    Adrian

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Worth checking your tyres (condition and pressures) before you go backl for a realignment, Brad. They can make a significant difference to straight line deviations.

    Personally If I find that a wheel alignment produces more problems than it solves I usually give up on that dealer and go someone else to get it sorted. Its usually a sign of inadequate equipment or poor technique.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  11. #11
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    The preasures were fine on the front. I have had up to 4PSI difference b4 between the two and it made no difference. Wear is identical. I think they just did the alighnment without the wheel being straight. The power steering will try to correct itself to dead centre, which cause the car to skew when the wheel becomes straight. This is my guess anyway.
    B to the R to the A from the D
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Ouch! 4psi difference left and right should make the car behave like its on a permanent roundabout! Even 2 psi is annoying to me on most Peugeots.

    If everything else is "square" , an off centre wheel usually means they have taken the lazy way out and only adjusted one track rod, rather than balancing the adjustment out between the two.

    I'd go somewhere else. Don't know about Brisbane, but in Melbourne Bob Jane tyre services usually do good wheel alignments. (for Melbourne residents - so does the new Beaurepairs in Greensborough).

    Cheers

    Rod

    [ 19 March 2002: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</p>
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  13. #13
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Yeah, i would of thought so too. Dad had about 12psi difference in the front tyres of his *ahum* 97 318is *ahum* and it puller REALLY hard to the lower presure side.

    I think once I take it back they will realise someone screwed up. Quikfit seem quite good though. $35 for 4 wheel balance, rotation and alignment. I get this every 10,000kms cause i bought tyres there.

    The drifting doesnt annoy me, its only the slight tilt of the steering wheel when driving straight that bugs the hell out of me. I'm the type of person that will go into someones house and straighten up their paintings.
    B to the R to the A from the D
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  14. #14
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    I stopped ALLOWING tyre places to align my wheels when one told me that my 320i chassis needed to be put on a jig, and then a specialist the next day took half an hour to do a standard alignment to make it track perfectly. I've been going back to the same place ever since, and they've never failed to make all my cars track dead straight, even the old R12 a couple of weeks ago. Suspension places also do all adjustable parameters in the price, whereas tyre dudes only do toe. They did the caster on the 12 as well.

    Ntrx, slightly negative toe (toe out) is desirable on the front if you want it neutral when driving, because of drive forces pulling the wheel forward and turning it in slightly. Sounds like you can't get this though - strange, as FWD cars are normally designed like this.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    [quote]Originally posted by Phasis:
    <strong> Quikfit seem quite good though. $35 for 4 wheel balance, rotation and alignment. I get this every 10,000kms cause i bought tyres there. .</strong><hr></blockquote>

    You get what you pay for Brad!

    If you do feel obliged to go back to them (I wouldn't) I'd be asking for full details of any adjustments made, the settings that they have used etc etc.

    With a proper alignment your car should NOT be doing what it is. How come they didn't pick it up in the road test? Or didn't they bother to do one?


    A few tyre outlets do actually do full parameter adjustments , including castor etc where possible, Stuey. Hence the recommendatioon for some of the Melbourne Bob Jane outlets in my earlier post. They usually charge a little bit extra for them of course. I don't know what the situation is in other states though.


    Cheers

    Rod

    [ 20 March 2002: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</p>
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  16. #16
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Im taking it back on Satuday for them to fix and get it right. I dont think my car has a castor adjustment, but it it did, what should I ask for?

    What other settings should I ask for in camber and toe? Like i said b4, i think they put 0.4mm toe in on each front wheel, but they recon the RHF had 1mm toe out...so it must have some toe out adjustment.
    B to the R to the A from the D
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    All of this talk about Brad's car makes me think there would be value in having the recommended settings for all Peugeots available on line. Is there a site out there with this info on it? If not, does anyone have a set of specs that could be used to create one?

    If not, maybe we could pool any info that we have ourselves? Here are some settings for the 404, 504 and 505.

    My old genuine Peugeot 404 workshop manual, for example, provides a figure of 2mm +- 1mm for toe in on the 404 and indicates that one turn of the ball head produces 3mm toe adjustment.

    The Autobooks 504 manual specifies 3mm =- 1 mm and indicates that one turn of the track rod gives a change of 4.5mm at the wheel rim (only one track rod is adjustable on vehicles without power steering made prior to 1979/80) castor should equal 2degrees 40' +-30' , camber 0 degrees 38' +- 30' , and swivel pin inclination 8degrees 54' +-30' (apart from toe in these aren't readily adjustable, without component replacement on the 504)

    The figures mentioned above are presumably for the saloon. I don't know whether they vary for the wagon.

    For the 505 the Haynes manual offers the following:
    Toe-in:
    Saloon models 3.0 +- 1.0 mm
    Estate (except GTI) 3.5 +- 1.0 mm
    Estate (GTI) 2.0 +- 1.0 mm

    Camber:
    Saloon models -045' +- 30'
    Estate (except GTI) -030' +- 30'
    Estate (GTI) -055' +- 30'

    Castor:

    Saloon models 240' +- 30'
    Estate models 2 +- 30'

    Steering axis inclination:
    Saloon models 915' +- 30'
    Estate (except GTI) 9 +- 30'
    Estate (GTI) 925' +- 30'

    vehicles manufactured after 1989 may be different

    Again , only toe is adjustable. The other settings are dependent on suspension part and body integrity.

    Anyone have settings for other vehicles to add?

    Cheers

    Rod
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  18. #18
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    wow that's totally different from a 504 TI that i once had
    i had 3 degrees neg camber on the front with 1mm toe in
    and the rear was 1.5 degrees neg camber
    that car handled like it was on rails
    it turned in really nice and on a straight road sat dead straight
    the handling was about the best i have ever had in an early pug
    and yes there was very little body roll left in the car
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  19. #19
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    [quote]Originally posted by Rod Hagen:
    [QB]

    A few tyre outlets do actually do full parameter adjustments , including castor etc where possible, Stuey. Hence the recommendatioon for some of the Melbourne Bob Jane outlets in my earlier post.

    [QB]<hr></blockquote>

    Yeah, Rod, I know some do. Trouble is, if you want to shop round for tyres, you've got to take the tyre outlet that gives you the deal you want.

    Stu


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger!
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    The tyre outlet I go to is Spinning Wheel tyres in Woolloomooloo, they have a full alignment capabilities, and have lots of racing experience (Elises, super touring 406 and M3, a few early Alfas too I think).

    I will get it double checked re that toe out.

  21. #21
    Tadpole
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    Hi - a quick $0.02...

    I recall from my Golf days that neutral toe was not desired as it didn't seat the wheel bearings during driving...led to some drift issues and uneven bearing wear.

    Not sure if this passes as good advice, but it seemed logical at the time

    Tony

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