Rear window rust removal on 504
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Rear window rust removal on 504

    Gday folks.

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    I have got some rust on the 504, on the off side rear windows bottom corner. Have any of you cut out and replaced that section? Are there any structral loads that may deform the remaining metal? Or make it difficult to place in the new section? Any experiance people or panel beaters help would be appreciated.

    Thanks Al

  2. #2
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    My friend recently had this repair done to his 504. It was fairly cheap to have done, but it did necessitate the removal and refitting of the rear window.

    So long as the rust is not in the buttresses at the rear of the pillar, then cutting out the rust and welding in a new panel doesn't seem to worry the structural integrity of a 504. Even if it is in the buttresses, it will probably be OK on all but rough roads (which can cause cracks to appear in this area).

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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I thought that I would add to this tale of rear window rust in the 504.

    I finally decided that I had to attack the rust in the back of the pug's rear window.

    Here are pictures after i removed the window then attacked it with the angle grinder.





    I was going to give it a bit more hell then pain it with a rust killer, bog it up then pain over it?

    Is this a bad idea. I don't particularly feel like getting it welded. I ask as I am worried about structural and long term integrity

    thanks

    shobbz
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Default Bog is no substitute for steel.

    I would have this gaping hole looked at by someone in the know.
    It looks as if this rust has compromised the rear firewall and is structural.

    I have in the past used composite materials to repair large holes in Holdens, (Bog and chicken wire, rolled up newspaper for formwork).
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Rust Repair

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma
    I would have this gaping hole looked at by someone in the know.
    It looks as if this rust has compromised the rear firewall and is structural.

    I have in the past used composite materials to repair large holes in Holdens, (Bog and chicken wire, rolled up newspaper for formwork).
    I have this very situation of the bottom of the rear widscreen in my 404.
    and will soon get around to fixing it

    It is extremely minor compared to the pix above. (one spot 20mm x 20mm)

    At the moment I am working on the rear subframe and cutting out the rust and bronze welding new folded sections into the frame. The sub frame is about 30 % gone.

    I am finding that bronze welding (using oxy-acet and bronze as a filler) is good because:

    1) The heat can be readily controlled

    2) The flux (which you dip the heated rod into, boracic acid powder) when it hits the rust cleans it off quite well and allows the bronze to bond. Of course you have to get the areas pretty clean with the angle grinder or power file first.

    3) It is easly to grind off and shape.

    4) Pin hole rust sections can be flooded with bronze and ground back.

    The bronze welding skill is not hard to pick up and although you heat a bigger area that MIG welding, the heat control is superb and easy to re-shape. It is also quite strong.

    I would suggest you look cutting some pieces of 1.2 mm steel plate and bronze welding them in and bogging over that. At least there is some strutural integrity under the bog then.


    MAKE SURE YOU CLEAN THE FLUX OFF WITH A POWER FILE OR VERY DILUTE NITRIC ACID BEFORE PAINTING .


    Good Luck !


    Robert

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
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    Default Rust repairs

    You're a brave man Gunga Din!.

    Firstly you will need to remake the seam for the windscreen rubber to key to so unless you have an edge to work to, all "landmarks" will not align. Boging it up is just a waste of time.
    Read some of the previous posts re rust repairs and take well meant advice.
    If you have access to a wrecker who may have a 504 body try to take a pattern or preferably the whole section to work from or replace.
    ROBMAC is having admirable efforts on the 404 and GAMMA freely admits to being a bog specialist. I'm pleased to say his 505 looks like it wont need the chicken wire for a while yet!.

    Bon chance
    Phil

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I don't think that the rust has hit the firewall. THe photo's were taken in bad light.

    I am going to get some fairly fine chicken wire and have fun with the bog.

    I need the rear windscreen in pronto so it may be a botch job.

    The windscreen was fairly easy to get out as i had large levering holes.

    Do i just wedge it back in?

    thanks

    shobbz
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    The windscreen was fairly easy to get out as i had large levering holes.

    Do i just wedge it back in?

    thanks

    shobbz
    You could try drilling holes in the glass and holding it in with rubber bands, shobbz.

    Seriously though, you are going to find it very hard to refit the glass with any security at all unless this section is properly repaired. The glass needs to be evenly supported and held under tension by the rubber to stay properly in place. Having one corner flip flopping is a guaranteed way of leaving your rear window lying on the highway behind you (or chopping off the head of a trailing bike rider as it sails through the air).

    Phil is right. THis one has to be done properly.

    Once you have the rust properly fixed, how do you do it? The glass goes into the rubber first, then you wrap a strong string around the groove in the rubber (loose ends at top, facing the interior of the car); the rubber/glass is put up against the hole, then with pressure applied to the outside, you use the string to pull the lip of the gasket over the metal of the hole.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    There is a window rubber inserting tool that you can get form most of the bigger auto supply places. It makes the job much easier and you reduce the risk of tearing the seal using the greased string method.

    And for the record. I consider myself a "Bog sculptor", not artist.
    I have also used floor levelling concrete and star-picket construction, (1968 VW D/S A pillar), performed bog in cut-out main sill for insertion into going sedan for bog gluing, (1Gal tin), (Holden HT), 8lt of coconut fibre and tar (auto Blackjack) to fill the pinholed floors, front and rear in a LJ Torana, (fine wire mesh for strength, masking tape to stop the tar flowing out of the digger holes and 12 weeks for the gooo to dry before painting with enamel) . These and many other necessary repairs I have done. Not all of which I feel especially proud of, but when one is poor and rego is due.


    Good to see ROBMAC is keeping the skills of bronzing and brazing alive. Do you do lead wipe as well?
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I cannot justify taking this job to a pro, its just not worth the cash.

    I will chat with my friends bog and mesh this afternoon and see how it all goes.

    I need the car on the road asap but i will make sure that the glass is a good fit before taking to the road.

    shobbz
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Fitting Windscreens

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Hagen
    You could try drilling holes in the glass and holding it in with rubber bands, shobbz.




    Once you have the rust properly fixed, how do you do it? The glass goes into the rubber first, then you wrap a strong string around the groove in the rubber (loose ends at top, facing the interior of the car); the rubber/glass is put up against the hole, then with pressure applied to the outside, you use the string to pull the lip of the gasket over the metal of the hole.

    Cheers
    Rod

    Make sure you lube the rubber with liquid detergent - wash up liquid works fine . If you don't you risk cutting the rubber

    I've found it easier to put the two ends of the string at bottom centre of the screen.

    Get an assistant to push the outside screen into place whilst you pull one side of the string - once the half the bottom edge is in repeat with the other half of the bottom side.

    You can then go around -if you are game the assistant can help the screen seat with a rubber mallet - GENTLY - whilst pulling the string.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Bronzing And Lead Wipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma


    ......Good to see ROBMAC is keeping the skills of bronzing and brazing alive. Do you do lead wipe as well?


    I tend to use bronzing because it much easier to use on steel of uneven sections and heat control.

    But it a real b@stard doing it upside with you head jammed on the ground. I managed to give my hair a singe last weeked - and I don't have a lot to loose anyway !

    Lead wipe is a very old technique - once reminded- I remember watching an old panel beater repairing a FJ Holden when I was very young. Bog has superceded it now.

    Telstra (PMG) in the old days used to make sleeves out of lead and use lead wipe to seal them when telephone cables were made with lead sheath.
    I watched the linesman doing that too.

    Now reminded I may try using it for pin-hole rust repairs on body panels . It would probably be easier with a LPG torch and a tin of Bakers, or even the traditional 2kg flame heat soldering iron, torch rather oxy acet which may be too hot.

    My friend who was in radiator and fuel tank repairs alway used a big manually heated soldering iron for fuel tank repairs. Lot safer than oxy on these items !

    I also think that tinsman's solder (50%lead/50% tin) would be be better that lead alone - but I will give this a test. Can use it for minor ding and dents as well.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Gamma and RobMac,

    I'm interested in how you would go about trying to fix Shobbz problem here. My own first reaction was that if a "bog job" was going to be the name of the game that it would probably have been better NOT to grind down the window surrounds in a situation like the one shown in his pictures. That way you might have had a decent chance of at least temporarily patching things up using the old rusty stuff as some sort of template. Nasty, and short term, but with some possibility of at least temporary success.

    Given that this is no longer an option, what would you use to build up the area and the window flange to allow fitting of the window seal etc. Looks more than a little tricky to me! At the very least I would have thought cutting some aluminium or other metal sheet to the shape of the old flange, and mounting it somehow (maybe using self tappers and epoxy or glass) would be necessary. Chicken wire and bog alone wouldn't suffice here I suspect.

    Cheers

    rod
    Last edited by Rod Hagen; 15th December 2004 at 06:33 PM.
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Rust Repairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Hagen
    Gamma and RobMac,

    I'm interested in how you would go about trying to fix Shobbz problem here. My own first reaction was that if a "bog job" was going to be the name of the game that it would probably have been better NOT to grind down the window surrounds in a situation like the one shown in his pictures. That way you might have had a decent chance of at least temporarily patching things up using the old rusty stuff as some sort of template. Nasty, and short term, but with some possibility of at least temporary success.

    Given that this is no longer an option, what would you use to build up the area and the window flange to allow fitting of the window seal etc. Looks more than a little tricky to me! At the very least I would have thought cutting some aluminium or other metal sheet to the shape of the old flange, and mounting it somehow (maybe using self tappers and epoxy or glass) would be necessary. Chicken wire and bog alone wouldn't suffice here I suspect.

    Cheers

    rod

    Hi Rod,

    Interesting you make that obvservation.

    When I started doing the 404 rear subframe repairs I was mindful of cutting the hell out of it. When you have no "outline" an it is very hard to put it all back!

    What I have done is try to leave the outline of the frames and weld seams (where two or more parts are spotted together) in place. When I have folded up replacement parts THEN I CUT the old bits out entirely and bronze the new bits in.

    In spots I have even left the old seams in place (when they are rust free) and welded the new bits to them.

    I simply get up every Saturday and look at each section and make a decision on it's merits - I am getting better as I go. Thre is no hard and fast method.

    But I certainly go easy with the angle grinder until I know how I am going to tackle the repair. You can easily cut it out later -but it's near impossible to put it back once it's rusted and cut out !

    As to the 504 repair, I would probably go down to the wreckers, with a small angle grinder and cut a lump off a wreck and for the repair gas weld it back into the car under repair. MIG would be better for this task 'tho

    The way panel beaters do bog up work with rust is beat the sectionit concave and put in small self tappers and use fibre glass cloth and resin to hold the shape. Then they use bog for a "lasting" lustrious finish!

    This is the way I saw it done anyway.

    regards


    Rob

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I could get hold of a section of frame and get it welded in i guess, but this sounds rather time consuming and expensive.

    I didn't do much cutting of metal at all. Just got a screw driver at poked around.

    From the outside it looked only minor. I did a botched job a while back so i guess that job plus the rain that we have been having has helped the rust spread.


    I know it far from ideal. But what is that wrong with the chicken wire and bog job? The rust for now is localised to this area and i have coated as much as i can with rust converter, which seems to be doing the job nicely.

    Sorry if i sound like a nagging child but i need the car as an A to B and i don't think my friends with the flashing lights will appreciate my new easy access rear door.

    thanks

    shobbz
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Rust Repairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    I could get hold of a section of frame and get it welded in i guess, but this sounds rather time consuming and expensive.

    I didn't do much cutting of metal at all. Just got a screw driver at poked around.

    From the outside it looked only minor. I did a botched job a while back so i guess that job plus the rain that we have been having has helped the rust spread.


    I know it far from ideal. But what is that wrong with the chicken wire and bog job? The rust for now is localised to this area and i have coated as much as i can with rust converter, which seems to be doing the job nicely.

    Sorry if i sound like a nagging child but i need the car as an A to B and i don't think my friends with the flashing lights will appreciate my new easy access rear door.

    thanks

    shobbz
    Hi shobbz

    Point taken and I can see exactly where you are coming from !
    Go for it and make the car reliable transport without too much money/ work.
    I've done the same repairs.

    But this it is a forum and the by definition everybody gets to put in their two bobs worth. My intention has never been to TELL how to do the job, but to pass on what has worked for me in making similar repairs. Also to enjoy the feedback from other members and the wealth of knowledge contained therein.

    In my own case if I don't do some re-constructive work on my 404 the @rse is likely to fall of it at the next big pothole! So our needs are very different.

    I personally love 404s (a link to my younger days/ second childhood?) and get a degree of satisfaction from fixing up the rust and restoring the car. I also have the luxury of having three other cars whilst the 404 on blocks and un-registered. This is long term project probably about 2 to 5 years to final completion and about 6 month to re-registration. I will probably spend more than the car is worth fixing it, but it is hobby. So again it's very different to your case.

    No need to be "sorry" and apologies if I have made you feel necessary to be sorry.

    regards


    Rob

  17. #17
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    if you are something without welding then go the fibreglass way

    you will still have at least 95%+ of the rubber held in by metal so you should be ok

    as for putting in the screen grab some cheap plastic type rope from solly's (you know the red,black white crap stuff that your mother uses to hold plants up with ) and run that in around the rubber whilst it is on the glass and using those nozzles that come with silastic tubes to guide the rope into the rubber

    with the back windows i start pulling from the top as it is the smaller side and have someone standing outside the car holding the screen up

    then as you get to each corner do them one at a time then each side then all along the bottom

    you will note it will just slide straight in without dramas
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac
    Hi shobbz

    Point taken and I can see exactly where you are coming from !
    Go for it and make the car reliable transport without too much money/ work.
    I've done the same repairs.

    But this it is a forum and the by definition everybody gets to put in their two bobs worth. My intention has never been to TELL how to do the job, but to pass on what has worked for me in making similar repairs. Also to enjoy the feedback from other members and the wealth of knowledge contained therein.

    In my own case if I don't do some re-constructive work on my 404 the @rse is likely to fall of it at the next big pothole! So our needs are very different.

    I personally love 404s (a link to my younger days/ second childhood?) and get a degree of satisfaction from fixing up the rust and restoring the car. I also have the luxury of having three other cars whilst the 404 on blocks and un-registered. This is long term project probably about 2 to 5 years to final completion and about 6 month to re-registration. I will probably spend more than the car is worth fixing it, but it is hobby. So again it's very different to your case.

    No need to be "sorry" and apologies if I have made you feel necessary to be sorry.

    regards


    Rob

    Rob don't get me wrong. I wasn't pushing your idea aside. I think its the best way to do it. I didn't feel that you were telling me what to do, I took you post as advice on how you would do the job, as you said.

    I have come to a point where the pug is just not getting the attention it needs. Runnig gear is near faultless, its the shell and things like window winders and doors that are letting me down.

    I wish i could store the car somewhere and get something newer for day to day and give the pug the care it has earnt. The current state of my rear springs is the best indicator of its well earnt career.

    I agree about the "younger days". Mine are only a few years past. Pity but i can't seem to find/want to find the time anymore to do the small things right. Now its day to day.

    Soon I hope to find alternate transport and shelter for the pug and my posts will hopefully reflect a more mature and long term outlook rather than the "need car by tommorrow, how do i replace the engine" motivation of late.

    Tommorrow i have a date with bog, that is if today's association with rustkiller has done its duty.

    shobbz
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    Tommorrow i have a date with bog, that is if today's association with rustkiller has done its duty.

    shobbz
    Bog may be the pragmatic approach here. (A third class ride, beats a first class walk).
    Try using a section of steel angle or a chunk of Al-form to give you the ridge for the window rubber.

    If the repair is only temporary until you can do more serious resto work, dont get to enthusiastic.

    The best repair will be replacing the section with a less rusty example from another car, or getting a tin bender to remake the section, (this should not cost as much as you think).
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I can get a less rusty section from another car, i could replace the entire rear panel if need be. I wish i could do that, there is a lot of bog at the back............

    But yes it would be possible for me to secure the entire rear window metal from another car then get it welded in i supose. The hard part would be getting the metal off the old car.

    shobbz
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    I can get a less rusty section from another car, i could replace the entire rear panel if need be. I wish i could do that, there is a lot of bog at the back............

    But yes it would be possible for me to secure the entire rear window metal from another car then get it welded in i supose. The hard part would be getting the metal off the old car.

    shobbz

    use an angle grinder

    cut as much away as you can so you have something to play with
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    After much deliberation, and realising that cutting out a window section from another peugeot may induce more problems than i could handle i have gone the bog route.

    I have tried to make the lip as similar as i can. It looks to be pretty straight so i am at least happy about that. I will see if i can get the window in and if i cannot i will have to once again attempt the welding method.

    thanks

    shobbz
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  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Sorry I missed this thread...

    Shobbzy... here's your pictures in a more 'see it properly on the screen'... you have to download Irfanview, m'lad!







    I think you should put some effort into getting another 504 to run around in while you fix this one. Don't worry about a newer car, keep your life simple and only need one set of spares. If you need to borrow a car for a while, my green one is available and can be picked up at Kangaroo Point if you wish.

    I think I can cut these sections out of one of the shells I'm chucking out, by the way. Let me know if you want me to for future reference...

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Sorry I missed this thread...

    Shobbzy... here's your pictures in a more 'see it properly on the screen'... you have to download Irfanview, m'lad!







    I think you should put some effort into getting another 504 to run around in while you fix this one. Don't worry about a newer car, keep your life simple and only need one set of spares. If you need to borrow a car for a while, my green one is available and can be picked up at Kangaroo Point if you wish.

    I think I can cut these sections out of one of the shells I'm chucking out, by the way. Let me know if you want me to for future reference...
    Ray a fine idea. I so want to do this, get a less loved pug to run around in while i realy make this one work. My parents want the present pug and its associated parted out friends to leave as it is, another pug would only make me less popular. Its mechanically a1 but i need time to tighten everything down and replace the rear springs.

    If you could get those sections out that would be fantastic, i will see tomorrow if the bog will hold the screen temporarily, but i have reservations.

    thanks

    shobbz
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  25. #25
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Well, for what it's worth, I don't think keeping the screen in will be an issue for you... it's going to be keeping the water out that you'll find hard.

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