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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Fuel economy

    Any hints on improving fuel economy on a 2litre petrol aspirated automatic 504 other than the standard tune up regime. I'm currently getting 14litre/100km city cycle.
    Performance is not a critical issue for me.

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  2. #2
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    We've got an auto 504 as well.

    The biggest difference came initially from changing from the Solex carby to a Weber, and then recently getting the Weber reconditioned.

    Ours does about 12L/100km in the city and 10ish on the highway.

    If you want model numbers on the carby etc I'll have to get back to you - it was done a long time ago...

    Derek

  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'm still going to try the SU conversion using a single SU from a Rover 2000...

    It has to be better than the Weber. And a lot less trouble, though more difficult to fit in the first place.

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    It has to be better than the Weber. And a lot less trouble, though more difficult to fit in the first place.
    What trouble?
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I've had heaps... blocked jets etc.

  6. #6
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    Have you heard about the Ecotek CB 26P?

    Its a small mechanical device which plumbs into your inlet manifold (connects to the vacuum line for the brake servo on my 205)and injects small amounts of air into the mixture at varying rev ranges.

    Effectively, what it does is it safely 'leans' the mixture out and creates manifold turbulence which gives better fuel molecule suspension. All that gives better fuel economy, better performance, better throttle response and reduces emissions.

    Saw it Max Power magazine and thought I'd try it out. It would have to be one of the best investments I've made!!! Cost to get it from the UK was about 75 quid (or about $210) and took about 10 days to get here but it has payed for itself in fuel savings a few times over already.

    Check out their web site:

    <a href="http://www.ecotekplc.com" target="_blank">www.ecotekplc.com</a>

    In my 93 model 205GTi I would get around 450km on a tank. When the CB26-P was tune right I would get an extra 60-80km each tank (depending on how I drove).

    This little device really works and no I'm not an Ecotek sales rep!

    Goat

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Is this the same as one of those Hiclone vortex things??

    I have been keeping an interested distance from these things...the Ecotek CB-26P does seem to get some awesome reviews though.

    does any one have some experience with the fuel catalysts?

  8. #8
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    The hyclone just creates a swirling effect and generally sits at the top of the carbi. The ecotek actually changes the air/fuel ratio depending on the vacuum created in the intake plenum.

    I usually keep a safe distance from these things too but the number of independant and reliable reviews convinced me it was worth checking out.

    I'm glad I did!

    Goat

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    What about things like fuel cat?

    do these fuel catalysts work well?

  10. #10
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    Goat:

    In my 93 model 205GTi I would get around 450km on a tank. When the CB26-P was tune right I would get an extra 60-80km each tank (depending on how I drove).

    Goat
    Goat,
    Can you give us a precise litres per 100km figure for the car before you fitted the device and after you fitted it and the percentage improvement?

    I'm not a fan of 'km per tank' because it's so imprecise and likely to be a sort of a self fulfilling prophecy because you *want* the fuel economy to be better after spending $210

    Derek.

  11. #11
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Aaron:
    What about things like fuel cat?

    do these fuel catalysts work well?
    I have a Doring one purely to prevent exhaust valve seat erosion.

    It works for that, and very well. I can't give a proper answer for anything else, and so far I haven't run straight unleaded with it so I'm not able to say anything about that aspect either.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    <span><span class=ResizableText0>
    Originally</span> posted by Ray Bell: <span class=ResizableText0><strong>
    Originally</span> posted by
    Aaron: <strong>What about things like fuel cat? do these fuel catalysts work <span class=ResizableText0>well?
    I</span> have a Doring one purely to prevent exhaust valve seat erosion. It works for that, and very well. I can't give a proper answer for anything else, and so far I haven't run straight unleaded with it so I'm not able to say anything about that aspect <span class=ResizableText0>either.
    </span> </span>
    Ray, my friend does the same, he has a CORDIA turbo leaded model. He swears by them and says that it helped stop the pinging from the crap lead replacement fuel too, plus the car is more rev happy. i might fit one on my 306 just to play with it and see what emmisions/power changes it will make, ill do this on the Dynometer at SAS hopefully soon.
    Xq
    ... ptui!

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    At the moment I working on stuff related to the 504 fuel economy the stuff I am trying is working on my mates laser. So hopefully I will have some results by early March including litres per 100 Dyno and five gas analysed HC CO O2 NOX CO2. Hold me to it! My mileage gains should be good! I keep u posted Wasafrog.

    <small>[ 07 February 2003, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  14. #14
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    Goat:
    Have you heard about the Ecotek CB 26P?
    I'd keep a safe distance from anything that leans out the fuel/air mixture, because it might have long term engine life side effects, which cancel out any fuel savings.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    wasafrog:
    Any hints on improving fuel economy on a 2litre petrol aspirated automatic 504 other than the standard tune up regime. I'm currently getting 14litre/100km city cycle.
    Performance is not a critical issue for me.
    HI wasafrog,

    I have the same model. I'm getting 9 litres/100 km on long highway cruising at 110 km/h and 12 litres/100 km around town. My car is stock standard 1976 GL, (XN1 engine, Solex carby, BW35 auto), apart from the following minor modifications:

    1. A 2 inch flexible duct has been fitted to air filter intake and runs to the front grill. The original idea of this was to give a cooler air intake to reduce pinging, which it does seem to have helped with.

    2. A wire has been run from the brake light swith to the radiator fan clutch to improve cooling when stoped in traffic. That way the fan runs when idling so its kicks in a lot less often when actually on the move since the radiator water has been "pre-cooled" prior to accelerating from a standstill.

    Other points about my car which may be worth noting are as follows, though I'm not suggesting that anything in the list below was a crucial factor:

    1. Front tires are Continental EcoContacts (supposed to reduce rolling resistance), inflated to 30 psi. Rears are hard, cheap Chinese tires which I want to replace with Cont's or Michelins and are inflated to 28 psi.

    2. Leaky hoses around the carby have been fixed.

    3. The oil bath filter has the correct level of oil in it.

    4. Spark plugs are NGK BP6ES with standard 504 gapping.

    5. Distributor is brand new Ducelier (with standard 504 advance curve). Vacuum advance IS connected AND working.

    6. Ignition timing is standard at 5 degrees BTDC at idle with advance hose temporarily disconnected.

    7. I hardly ever use the choke. Just pump the accelerator a few times before starting and it will usually fire up with no worries. Chokes cause fuel to be guzzled and cause carbon buildup.

    8. Fuel is BP LRP (96 octane), though I'm about to try Premium with Flashlube.

    9. Oil is Castrol Magnatec, with a standard Purflux filter.

    10. Tappet clearances have been done and are correct to original spec.

    11. Cooling system is stock standard apart from the mod mentioned above and is well maintained.

    12. The kickdown cable is adjusted relatively "tight", so that it will drop down a gear more easily. As I prefer to rev a motor than to labour it.

    13. My driving style is what you might call "fast but smooth" (I don't accelerate towards red trafic lights, and try to predict the traffic flow etc, etc). I am a "left foot braker".

    <small>[ 07 February 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: frogs4ever ]</small>
    2004 Clio Expression Verve 4sp auto -
    1984 Fuego GTX 5 speed (now a write off) -
    1976 504 GL auto (sold)

    French cars, Australian wine.

  16. #16
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    Hi wasafrog,

    I asked my dad and this is what he said:

    It's a Weber Twin Down Draught carby on our car - model 32DIR43
    There is another number on our carby - 51009H but we think that's the serial number.

    The carby is fitted to the manifold from the first series 504 1968-1972 (+/-)

    The air inlet tube from the carby to the aircleaner (which is bushed out at the air cleaner end) came from an early 505 and fits perfectly.

    If you can find a carby and need it rebuilt, we had ours rebuilt at Howarth Carburettor Service Co at 240 Parramatta Rd Burwood - 02 9747 4066 or <a href="http://www.carburettorservice.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.carburettorservice.com.au</a>

    As I said, with this setup our Auto 504 gets around 12L/100 in the city and around 10 (just under usually) on the highway. Much more power than with the original twin Solex fitted to the car.

    Hope that helps,
    Derek

  17. #17
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    DeKa:

    It's a Weber Twin Down Draught carby on our car - model 32DIR43
    That's basically a Renault 12 Weber. They have fairly small venturis for a 2 litre engine, hence they give good economy and good low down torque which is great for an automatic. These carbies are a tad small for manual 504s though, unless you're the kind of driver who never goes over 5000rpm.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  18. #18
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    DeKa:

    The carby is fitted to the manifold from the first series 504 1968-1972 (+/-)
    To be more specific, that manifold was first used on the 504 when the 2 litre engine was released in Europe in 1970 (1971 in Australia) and was used up until June 1976 in Australia (late 1974 in Europe, about 1972 in the US).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    Latest results for the 504 auto:

    10.64 litres per 100km

    Cycle:
    369 km in total, which includes 150 km of country back road cruising, the remainder being city and suburbs driving including about 20 minutes idling in a traffic jam in Hobart caused by the Wooden Boat Festival.

    Fuel:
    BP Premium Unleaded (95 octane), with Flashlube added as per instructions on bottle.

    <small>[ 12 February 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: frogs4ever ]</small>
    2004 Clio Expression Verve 4sp auto -
    1984 Fuego GTX 5 speed (now a write off) -
    1976 504 GL auto (sold)

    French cars, Australian wine.

  20. #20
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    davemcbean:
    That's basically a Renault 12 Weber. They have fairly small venturis for a 2 litre engine, hence they give good economy and good low down torque which is great for an automatic. These carbies are a tad small for manual 504s though, unless you're the kind of driver who never goes over 5000rpm.

    Dave
    Dave,
    Don't want to point out the obvious but wasafrog asked about fuel economy in an automatic 504... no doubt that is the reason we have that particular carby on our auto 504.



    Derek.

  21. #21
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    DeKa:
    davemcbean:
    That's basically a Renault 12 Weber. They have fairly small venturis for a 2 litre engine, hence they give good economy and good low down torque which is great for an automatic. These carbies are a tad small for manual 504s though, unless you're the kind of driver who never goes over 5000rpm.

    Dave
    Dave,
    Don't want to point out the obvious but wasafrog asked about fuel economy in an automatic 504... no doubt that is the reason we have that particular carby on our auto 504.



    Derek.
    I know. I was just providing a little more info as to the how and why the 32DIR works so well on an auto.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! vanderaj's Avatar
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    The general consensus on the aussieveedubbers forum is that LRP is crap quality and a waste of time. Do French cars have soft valve seats like Australian domestic cars, or hard valve seats like Volkswagens?

    Optimax is the best fuel for leaded VW's - if you guys have hard valve seats, you're probably best to run that or an equivalent. Optimax is 98 RON and already has a lot of additives. You may not need anything to stop the pinging.

    Fuel economy is related to so many factors, but the usual suspects are:

    * bad driving habits (try being "smooth" and don't accelerate to red lights, leave holes for yourself and generally don't accelerate hard)
    * underinflated tyres - use your tyre placard to choose the correct inflation for your tyres. Use a good quality pressure meter (not the crap thing at the garage) to check.
    * braking and accelerating at the same time. If you left foot brake, modern cars don't let you do that - the fly by wire throttle totally ignores you as soon as you apply any brake. You may as well get out of the habit now.
    * carrying any additional weight - always drive with just what you need and no more
    * leaving roof racks or similar on when you're not using them
    * using accessories unnecessarily. Don't use AC if you can live with just a window down (say low 20's)
    * Window and sunroof open or cracked upwards.
    * body kits (particularly wings and skirts)

    Andrew
    2003 C3 Exclusive Panoramique auto

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    vanderaj:
    The general consensus on the aussieveedubbers forum is that LRP is crap quality and a waste of time. Do French cars have soft valve seats like Australian domestic cars, or hard valve seats like Volkswagens?

    Optimax is the best fuel for leaded VW's - if you guys have hard valve seats, you're probably best to run that or an equivalent. Optimax is 98 RON and already has a lot of additives. You may not need anything to stop the pinging.

    Andrew
    Shello Optimax (98 RON), and competing 98 RON products from the other oil companies, are still not available in many, if not most, parts of Australia. To my knowledge, it's not available anywhere in Tassie, which is where I live, so I am forced to use Premium Unleaded (95-96 RON) or Lead Replacement Petrol (95-96 RON).

    There seems to be a lot of debate other which French cars have valve seats hard enough for unleaded petrol without an upper cylinder lubricant. Every expert has a different opinion on this. Mr Vanderaj, nearly all, perhaps all, French cars have alluminium alloy cylinder heads, so it follows that they will have some sort a valve seat inserts which are likely to be reasonably hard, but exactly how hard? - depends on the model and year. To further complicate matters, if the head has been reconditioned at any time, the valve seats could have been replaced with something that is harder or softer than the original seats, subject to whim or available stock.

    So I've decided to play it safe with my 1976 Pug 504, by using a fuel that has an upper cylinder lubricant added. In the case of LRP, the upper cylinder lube has been added by the oil company. When I use Premium Unleaded, I always add Flashlube for valve seat protection. I'm not saying Flashlube is best, it's simply the one I've decided to use, based on my reading, cost and reputation. Besides all this, excessive focus on fuel type and additives will draw us away from a more likely/frequent cause of valve failure, which is tappet clearances set too tight and/or ignition timing too retarded. Both of these should be checked, and adjusted if necessary, before agonizing endlessly over which type of fuel or additive is best.

    But I would like to know on what basis LRP is accused of being "crap" - after all it has the same octance rating (+/- 1) as Premium Unleaded but has a valve saver added to do the lubricating job previously done by lead.
    2004 Clio Expression Verve 4sp auto -
    1984 Fuego GTX 5 speed (now a write off) -
    1976 504 GL auto (sold)

    French cars, Australian wine.

  24. #24
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    [Quote/]

    "But I would like to know on what basis LRP is accused of being "crap" - after all it has the same octance rating (+/- 1) as Premium Unleaded but has a valve saver added to do the lubricating job previously done by lead."

    Take this for what it is; theory, but it's possibly based on as much fact that you could hope to get from an oil company as well as personal experience.

    From my experience, I have strong suspicions that consistency in the amounts of additives in it is one problem as is its basic quality control. When I had my BX 16 Trs, I had all sorts of problems getting the car to idle & perform even to an average standard. I noticed that whn I got petrol in the car, within a few miles it would start to carry on; ping, stall, miss, you name it. I'd go home, clean out the carby, clean & set plugs & timing, test drive & adjust on the road & away I'd go until next time when it would all have to be repeated again. When I questioned the local servo where I was dealing, I was told that the Oil Companies really didn't give a stuff about this stuff after all, it wouldn't be around for much longer anyway; they were trying to phase it out. When I told him the way my car performed he just laughed & basically said there was nothing he could do & I was pouring money down the drain even using it because according to him it was "only ULP with a bitta shit thrown in."
    I changed servos & the same thing happened. I then tried ULP and it couldn't be made to run properly no matter how hard we tried. Then one day I was stuck at the bowsers in a hurry with some deadhead in front stargazing & giving his car almost a full overhaul and all I could reach was the PULP so I filled up with that. What a difference!!
    Fuel consumption improved by about 10% and the performance was consistent. My son has been running his CX on it for about 3 or 4 years & he does big & hard miles all without any bad effects.
    We discussed this in detail on aussiefrogs a couple of yeras ago & Dave Cavanagh who is a Froggy Mechanic by trade agreed basically that higher octane without additives will do less damage than lower with, based on advice he had received from an engine rebuilder about 35 yeras experience.
    Rather than me keep raving, it may be worth doing a search on the archives and have a read of the heaps of info that was in there.
    In summary, I suspect that both the oil companies & the Government will be quite happy to see both LRP & cars that need it off the road & neither will do anything to make that reality take longer than is necessary which could account for the lack of interest by both parties in the quality of it. That's not a conspiracy theory; that's I feel is being brutally frank about the situation as it exists.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    RE, fuels and LRP....The service agent for Vikings buy their ELF fuels directly from the local distributor, this is for some of the plant equipment at my job.
    He tells me that on lots of commercial equipment (eg portable compressors) that don't run on diesel and used to run Super the service intervals had to be increased. Why? im not to sure, but he too mentioned that LRP dosn't go as far and is harder on the equipment. He wasn't too specific, it was a quick conversation but he knows his fuels and ive seen him test and place adatives in alot of equipment.... maybe he's onto something. im not sure, either way there had to be compromises for both leaded(super) and LRP.
    Funny though how ULP and PULP release more toxens than either super or LRP, even with a Catalist. just don't have the prolific character of Lead poisoning...
    Xq
    ... ptui!

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