yet again.. Rover V8 and 50/4/5
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    yet again.. Rover V8 and 50/4/5

    I have heard all sorts of rumours about this engine..

    some ppl tell me to run away as fast as a i can.. thoust not to lay eyes on such a infernal beast of satin..

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    others tell me to embrace and bring to my nipple as a mother..

    why so much garbage floating round bout the rover..

    1) Ecenomical on petty?

    2) Cheap power.. or parts getting harder and harder to come by..?

    3) Real life cost of obatining.. doing the required servicing / rebuilding befroe use.. and installation in a pug..

    4) rego .. need to be engeniered no..??

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    IMHO if you are going to go down this road go for the 3.5 version or even the later 3.9inj version but don't use the 4.4 leyland version
    the 3.5 was an engine that revved well and breathed fairly well where as the 4.4 was a bit of overkill
    parts can be pricey though but just think of the exhaust note you would have
    nothing nicer than a V8 rumble eminating from the rear of a car
    you will have to get an engineers certificate for the car
    last time i enquired anything that was an increase of 15% or more in engine size had to have a ticket
    how this goes for rotaries i am not sure but i'd dare say it would be something like the car was never fitted with such an engine so it would have to fall under engineering as well
    even a 505 has to have an engineers certificate even though they were fitted with a PRV overseas they never hit our shores with this engine
    it's all to do with ADR's
    give your local RTA a call and they will point in the general direction and give you as much as you need to know for a conversion and if you strike a good engineer they are more than willing to chat about what you can and can't do and what you need to do to comply with the rules and regulations in regards to mounts and pollution, brakes and suspension
    these are the main points they are intersted in besides the obvious roadworthiness (did i make up a new word ??? ) of the car
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Rover V8s are not fantastic with the petrol, but htey were mostly fitted to big heavy cars.
    Probably the worst thing about them is the camshaft. It wears very rapidly, and it is usually replaced along with the rings, bearings, etc. Parts can be a bit pricey.
    I will have one to play with soon, 'cos the bloke couldn't sell it so he gave it to me.
    They make a Truimph TR7 hoot.
    Pugs Rule!

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    Fellow Frogger! BigH's Avatar
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    Rover v8's have two great pluses....light weight and longevity. 300,000-400,000 kms out of a Range Rover carby engine is not unusual if maintained properly.I have owned several of these cars and 17-20 m.p.g is achievable on a run,so 25-30 m.p.g should be achievable in a smaller lighter car.The first of the injected engines 1986/7 is probably the one to avoid.Kits are avail.to bore the 3.5 litre to 3.9, stroke it to 4.2.or bore and stroke it to 4.6 or 4.7, but these kits are see your bank manager prices.Rebuilds are also fairly pricey, but if something did happen it would be easier and cheaper to just get another one from the wreckers or trading post.I have a bell housing to fit a BA7 gearbox on to a Rover V8 -Something I hope to start on later in the year.Imagine a 504 with a 4.7 injected motor, 5 speed gearbox and Ti or 604 diff ratio.You'd have all bases covered. Cheers Hank.

  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Turbo-diesel 604 diff would be the trick... out of an automatic.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Pugnut403:
    Rover V8s are not fantastic with the petrol, but htey were mostly fitted to big heavy cars.
    Probably the worst thing about them is the camshaft. It wears very rapidly, and it is usually replaced along with the rings, bearings, etc. Parts can be a bit pricey.
    I will have one to play with soon, 'cos the bloke couldn't sell it so he gave it to me.
    They make a Truimph TR7 hoot.
    have you ever driven a TR7/8 ???????
    TR7's weren't too bad but chuck the 8 in it and you have a car that handles like the preverbial bag
    good in a straight line but don't kid yourself that because they are a light engine and TR8's were made that they can go around corners
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    I didn't say they can corner There have been a few in Targa Tasmania over the years, and they usually go very sideways most of the time. Brilliant in a straight line though.
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Imagine a 504 with a 4.7 injected motor, 5 speed gearbox and Ti or 604 diff ratio.You'd have all bases covered. Cheers Hank.
    That is percisly my dream..

    im just trying to work out weather it is indeedly feasable in the long run.. and indeed weather it is a good use of capital..

    where i put that dam money tree.. lol

    <small>[ 14 May 2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: bowie ]</small>

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

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  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    I'm interested in this too.

    What is an average type rebuild price for a 3.5 or 3.9?

    Thanks

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    Tadpole Mikospopos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpug
    I'm interested in this too.

    What is an average type rebuild price for a 3.5 or 3.9?

    Thanks
    Well I am more than happy to provide info for ayone wanting to see how mine has been done. I would advise to go for the 4.4 over the 3.9 Reliability is superb - power is higher Also a big bore kit is avail to make 5.0 litres.

  11. #11
    Gus
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    last time i enquired anything that was an increase of 15% or more in engine size had to have a ticket
    how this goes for rotaries i am not sure
    For the record, in NSW, Rotor counts as 2x a same displacement piston engine's capacity. If its turbo (you'd be foolish if it wasn't) you need a cert anyhow, of course.

    Are there any other alternatives to a Leyland V8 (more modern ones.) RB30 should be pretty cheap (but prolly heavier, and definitely longer.) I know everyone drools over the Lexus V8, but that's $$$ and fancy wiring... anything else?

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I have seen a Rover 3500 SDi with its alloy V8 replaced by a Lexus quad cam V8 - made it go fairly well
    The Rover V8 is a great motor (have had a couple over the years). The best ones in my eyes are early P6B engines with a 11.5 compression ratio.
    Pretty cheap to build (pistons and rings set can be had for ~$350). Replace cam and lifters as well and they usually need rocker shafts reconditioned (prone to oil supply problems to rockers on poorly maintained examples). Once done though, they go forever, and a grand and a bit should see it done with a rebore, ground crank and heads reconditioned.
    Dont bother with crappy Holleys, the SU carbs are very good.

    But I confess being a stickler for keeping a Pug essentially a Pug, so I would build a lowish compression PRV V6 with late Volvo EFI and strap on a supercharger - easy power, sounds as good if not better and will go like stink

    But if you have cheap acess to a healthy Rover motor, go for it!
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    I have rebuilt and modified quite a few of the Rover V8's over the years, there is an excellent book on the subject by David Hardcastle this is essential reading! The early 10.5CR engines have rope type rear main seals that always seem to seep. The SD1 and later engines had a larger oil pump, improved port design for better flow also larger valves from memory. For parts try Scotts Old Auto Rubber, Fabre Australia (engine parts) and I highly recomend Crow Cams for replacement cams they have a very good range for the Rover V8. Critical factors on these engines are oil pumps, water pumps, ensuring there is no wear in the carby throttle shafts (SU & stromberg CD carbs) and fitting some type of electronic ignition. Pushrods have a tendency to wear through the pressed steel wear plates inside the rockers so fitting the cast iron "Buick" items is normally the easiest fix roller rocker are avaivable if you have deep pockets. Real world fuel consumption in something like a 504 should be over 27MPG provided you don't drive like its a rental and don't go too wild with the cam. Don't go for higher than about 9.5CR in these engines unless you intend to run PULP (10-10.5 OK) or Straight LPG (10.5-11 OK).
    Last edited by rick_b; 28th December 2003 at 07:18 PM.
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    Fellow Frogger! nchandler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    I have seen a Rover 3500 SDi with its alloy V8 replaced by a Lexus quad cam V8 - made it go fairly well
    The Rover V8 is a great motor (have had a couple over the years). The best ones in my eyes are early P6B engines with a 11.5 compression ratio.
    Pretty cheap to build (pistons and rings set can be had for ~$350). Replace cam and lifters as well and they usually need rocker shafts reconditioned (prone to oil supply problems to rockers on poorly maintained examples). Once done though, they go forever, and a grand and a bit should see it done with a rebore, ground crank and heads reconditioned.
    Dont bother with crappy Holleys, the SU carbs are very good.

    But I confess being a stickler for keeping a Pug essentially a Pug, so I would build a lowish compression PRV V6 with late Volvo EFI and strap on a supercharger - easy power, sounds as good if not better and will go like stink

    But if you have cheap acess to a healthy Rover motor, go for it!
    Do you have any idea how expensive it would be to R&D a supercharger system for the PRV v6? surely it'd end up putting you $5-8k out of pocket? Not to mention, the PRV V6 aint the most reliable engine at the best of times, but with a supercharger running off it?

    Personally I'd definitely, no questions asked, get the 1UZFE toyota v8. Absolutely bulletproof (stock bottom end on these things is good for 1000bhp, they are very popular in salt lake drags), forged pistons, conrods, crank, etc. Lighter than pretty much any other option, and far more refined as well. Plus. $2.5k will get you a half cut easily.

    Add to that, then you are open to a whole new world of pre developed supercharger kits (hello 400hp+++), nitrous (there is a BMW e36 3 series in a magazine of mine, with the 1UZFE, running nitrous putting out 350hp at the treads, with very little engine work).

    So theres my 2c.

    Nick

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nchandler
    Not to mention, the PRV V6 aint the most reliable engine at the best of times

    Nick
    please tell me how these engines are unreliable
    they have one of the strongest bottom ends i have seen in a pug engine to date
    if you are thinking of the tuning issues they had with them in the 604's then i can understand but even that is easily overcome by simple methods
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I always thought they were pretty tough - Renault even used the supposedly weaker even fire crank on its turbo version in the R25 V6 Turbo and later Alpines, which would develop a reliable 250 - 300 bhp. Have a friend who had an Alpine A310 V6 which was built on the "weak" even fire crank and surprised the Ferrari mechanic where it was dynoed - was putting to shame some similar sized Ferrari engines.

    Speaking of Renault, another option is the Pug GTi engine turbocharged. As we all know, Renault turboed this motor for the R21 Turbo which can be tuned to devlop a reliable 200 - 250 bhp.
    Simply build a Gti motor to 2 litre R21 T spec (use a Fuego crank and import the liner/piston set, and get the head modded to get the right comp.), strap on the hairdryer, import an R21T computer or use an aftermarket one and voila!
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    Fellow Frogger! nchandler's Avatar
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    I've heard some pretty bad stories about the v6 donks in 505s and volvo 260/760s. I don't know all that much about the various incarnations that engine appeared in, but surely there are some seriously better options out there?

    Nick

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nchandler
    I've heard some pretty bad stories about the v6 donks in 505s and volvo 260/760s. I don't know all that much about the various incarnations that engine appeared in, but surely there are some seriously better options out there?

    Nick
    tell me more about these stories
    have you had a close look at the PRV V6
    i'd say most of the stories you have heard are about the crap they bolt onto them not the engine itself
    these engines are extremely strong and in standard form highly understressed
    they have a lot of room for playing and pump out very decent horsepower for very little work
    the 504 i had with a V6 in it was about the quickest V6 504 i have ever seen and it only had a little headwork, cams and exhaust
    in all the PRV powered pugs i have had the only time i have been stranded was when i ran out of fuel
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nchandler
    I've heard some pretty bad stories about the v6 donks in 505s and volvo 260/760s. I don't know all that much about the various incarnations that engine appeared in, but surely there are some seriously better options out there?

    Nick
    The PRV V6 has a reputation, in Volvos, of doing cams. This reputation is thoroughly deserved, but it isn't the engine's fault. Volvo put in their handbooks that the oil is to be changed every 10k kms, instead of the Peugeot recommendation of every 5k kms. It made all the difference - the Pug ones lasted forever, and the Volvo ones ran cams frequently, and cost a poultice to fix.

    The other issues with these motors are, as Pugrambo says, to do with bolt-on stuff. The Australian incarnation (i.e. in the 604) had a bad ignition and carburation set-up. Fit electronic ignition and a decent carby (or injection) and you're home and hosed. No issues at all.

    As for strength, they ran this motor for 9 years at Le Mans, in various cars, and it was producing 950bhp, with a standard bottom-end, so I doubt that anything any of us could do would be able to break one. They have four mains, which one every three or four inches along the crank, and they are perfectly balanced from the factory. I tried to get mine balanced but the bloke wouldn't even try - he said he's never seen one which wasn't perfect!

    The odd-fire version (the older, 2.7l ones), has the most incredible engine note you'll ever hear. It is pure music. Deep and growling at low revs, and a real hair-raising howl at high revs. If you want to feel completely superior to a WRX-driver, rev a PRV V6 up next to him at the lights. (Of course, unless you've turboed yours, he is going to make you feel inferior again very soon afterwards...)

    I'm sure there are "better" engines out there, for various reasons, but these have the advantages of being a Peugeot motor, and being (relatively) easy to fit at (relatively) low cost, since there are bell-housings, gearboxes, radiators, etc., all available at reasonable prices second-hand. And then there's that engine note. Ahhhh.

    Cheers,
    John Lane.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    well put john
    all i have to do now i grab a bell housing
    i have the injection that i'll be going through soon then i'll look at fitting it all

    i haven't decided yet if i am going to use the heads or put the injectors into the inlet manifold
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    well put john
    all i have to do now i grab a bell housing
    i have the injection that i'll be going through soon then i'll look at fitting it all

    i haven't decided yet if i am going to use the heads or put the injectors into the inlet manifold
    Hi Sean,

    What are you fitting it to that you need a bell-housing? Or are you going manual in the 604?

    Regards,
    John.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquinian
    Hi Sean,

    What are you fitting it to that you need a bell-housing? Or are you going manual in the 604?

    Regards,
    John.
    i will be going manual
    i have a flywheel by stroke of luck which when i dig it out i have to measure up for another frogger
    might do that this weekend actually
    and i have all the injection bar the fuel distributor which i'll hunt one down (plenty of volvos around)
    i have a pressure plate as well but it needs new fingers in it but that's not a big problem
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! nchandler's Avatar
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    Ahh, cheers fellas, that clears a lot up. I'd always read here on AF, very positive opinions of the PRV engine, however I'd heard some terrible stories elsewhere.

    Still think there are better options (if the owner wasn't fussed about the car staying true to its roots) than that engine though.


    Nick

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nchandler
    Ahh, cheers fellas, that clears a lot up. I'd always read here on AF, very positive opinions of the PRV engine, however I'd heard some terrible stories elsewhere.

    Still think there are better options (if the owner wasn't fussed about the car staying true to its roots) than that engine though.


    Nick
    for what they cost and their weight and the supply of them i can't think of anything else that is a better option
    sure there are bigger and better out there but at what cost
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    for what they cost and their weight and the supply of them i can't think of anything else that is a better option
    sure there are bigger and better out there but at what cost
    There's a bloke I know here in Perth who has a twin-cam-per-bank V6 from a late-model Cintroen or Renault, which I believe is also used by Peugeot. He offered it to me for $1000. If it had its engine-management computer I'd have gone that way instead of the PRV motor. Same weight, similar cost, loads more horsepower. But probably not quite the same engine note!

    Regards,
    John.

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