PRV V6 into a 505
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    PRV V6 into a 505

    Hi all,

    I did a search and read what people have offered so far on this subject, but I didn't see anyone describe what is required.

    I have a 505 SR that I have restored and licensed - all new suspension bushes, full colour-change (306 Cabriolet yellow) re-spray, and replaced interior + a real steering wheel (hate those 505 wheels!). On Saturday I pulled out the motor and I have a brand new Volvo 2.7 litre PRV block and a couple of second-hand complete 2.7l Volvo PRV motors, and I intend to build up a good V6 and drop it in the 505. At this stage it looks like the only practical course (if I want to stick to automatic, which I do) is to mate it to a 604 three-speed GM box, of which there is one locally (Perth) available cheap, with its 604 bell-housing.

    Questions for helpful Pug-nuts:

    1. Any other auto gearboxes available at reasonable cost?
    2. Issues with engine mounting?
    3. Advice on mildly lumpy cam grinds for these motors?
    4. Any comments/advice on the Volvo-fitted Bosch injection? (I have the "octopus" inlet manifolds but I can get a "high-rise" one if there is good reason).
    5. The Volvo 264 radiator looks like it will probably fit. Anybody used one of those in a 505? If not, any suggestions on a better solution?
    6. Does anybody have a source of reasonably-priced gaskets for these beasts? The first price I got was around $200 per bank for VRS sets! OUCH!
    7. I also have a Supra supercharger sitting under the bench, which has been artfully suggesting that it would add about 50bhp to a PRV if it could near it. Anybody tried this?

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    I want at least 150bhp, which is what the 505 chassis always deserved, but 200bhp would be bloody nice!

    Thanks for any advice offered!

    Regards,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    As I understand it, John, one of the problems is clearance between the left hand cylinder head and the lumpy bits around the ventilation system in that area. The fan housing etc...

    I really don't think the gearbox is an issue, as long as you can get a bellhousing and flywheel assembly, you can always do a cut and shut on the starter location.

    But there are various Toyota boxes that can be adapted, and my feeling is that using the early iron-cased Celica (Corona etc) box, which is readily available, together with the bellhousing that comes on the (I think it is!) RT80 Corona will give you a good start to making an adaptor to the engine.

    This bellhousing is only half-depth, it's the same one that comes on 5R engined Crowns as well, by the way, and as it is you need only make up a partial adaptor to mate this to the Pug engine.

    At the rear there have been methods described for mating different boxes to the 'link tube' and I fancy that using bolts and brackets is a better option than welding here. But I may be wrong.

    The link tube and tail shaft would have to be shortened and a different spline adapted into the tail shaft.

  3. #3
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    Try Gary Randall at Sandwood auto parts
    garysand@hotkey.net.au
    Much cheaper than $200 a side.
    I was quoted $400 a side from a Volvo Dealer, not surprisingly they didn't have any in stock!
    Graham Wallis

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info guys. I've emailed Gary Randall for prices.

    I think the tail shaft could be lengthened pretty easily to get around the space problem in the engine bay. Make sense?

    As for gearboxes, what kind of approach would you take to the back end of it? I can't imagine how one would fit a Pug-style back end to another gearbox, short of unbolting the existing rear section of the new gearbox and fabricating a new rear bearing housing and torque-tube flange. Then there is the spline difference to take care of. What did you have in mind, Ray?

    Regards,
    John Lane.

    <small>[ 14 May 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: aquinian ]</small>
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  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    You really need diagrams here...

    First, the diff will stand moving back and forward to cater for some location change. But the gearbox change will mean that you take care of that issue when you calculate the length to which you will shorten the link tube. So yes, by altering engine mounts you can move the engine forward the half inch you need to avoid butchering the fan shrouding.

    As for the flange on the back of the box, if you machine up a flange and bore it to match the OD of the machined area on the outside of the back of the extension housing, that can neatly slip on there. In my view, this is done with a tightish fit and some jointing compound - the range from Loctite probably provides something that will do that job.

    Then, again in my view, it has to be keyed in so it won't turn. Grub screws in each side, with appropriate recesses drilled into the housing should take care of that.

    To prevent it moving fore and aft, brackets to bolts that hold the extension housing on would be the way I'd go. All of this to avoid welding the housing and any consequent distortion you might get doing that.

    Or you can weld it together... it's been done and with care it would probably be okay.

    The female spline would come from the tail shaft of the donor car, pare off the universal end and then prepare it and the tail shaft to be very carefully spigotted and welded.

    How does that sound?

  6. #6
    Member alan_505's Avatar
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    Below is a description of how I adapted a Toyoya box to a BA10 bell housing, I don't think it would work as well with a BA7 bell housing as the bolts mounting diameter is smaller. Also if using the Volvo engine and it is the even fire with electronic ignition and the throttle body at the back of the manifold the heater ducting will not be able to be used at all. I had to rotate the fan assembly and remove the front cover from the heater box and replace it with a flat plate and route a piece of flexible tube over the left hand head and around the throttle body.

    Alan.
    The conversion that Graham is talking about I did for an N9TE engined 505 rally car, it used a N9TE BA10 bell housing mounted to a machined Toyota bell housing, (the bell housing was machined flat and a ring was machined to centralise the BA10 bell housing to the Toyota plate). The thrust bearing was a modified Nissan fitted to the normal clutch fork. At the back of the gearbox I machined up a block of aluminium to suit the end of a torque tube and had it welded to the Toyota extension housing. The torque tube was shortened and the quill shaft had the Toyota spline welded to it. I still have the gearbox and shafts you will have to join the queue to buy it, it is not for sale at the moment but you are welcome to have a look at it any time to see how to do it.
    Alan

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Seeing as the most difficult bit of a BA10 to get is the V6 bellhousing, I think it's better to work from that Corona/Crown partial bellhousing.

    Of course, there is no BA7 bellhousing for the V6, but maybe the Volvo bellhousing would do some good?

  8. #8
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    if you don't want pwoer steering use a LH drive bell housing
    BA7/5 will destruct itself behind a PRV V6 heance there aren't any bellhousings to bolt a 7/5 up to a PRV V6
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  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    You really need diagrams here...
    ...
    How does that sound?
    I agree about the diagrams!

    Sounds like it would work, all right. The only issue would be torsion - do you think that the twisting motion of the engine and gearbox under acceleration would produce too much force for a couple of grub screws to hold? I suppose several million v-pulleys around the world are fixed to drive shafts using counter-sunk grub screws, so it must be a reasonably strong method.

    I'll dig around and see whether I can get a cheap 4-speed Jap auto box and make a decision after that. Anybody have any recommedations of non-electronic 4-speed Jap autos?

    Regards,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yes, I have...

    Avoid them. You'll get into more trouble adapting them than you'll ever want.

    But don't take my word for it, ask others...

  11. #11
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    Hi Guys!!
    A Legend by the name of Roland Pym, brings Peugeot 505 V6 parts in from France/Germany and is always doing conversions, he will have all the tips you will need, and all the parts you will need.
    He is based in Sydney
    Ph# (02) 9653 1641
    Tell him Adrian from PugSport referred you...
    Peugeot
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  12. #12
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    except he stood there one day and argued with me saying that the inlet manifold i had on my 604 was not a pug one even after i dragged the parts manual out from the boot of the car
    oh well roll_lau
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    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    I've heard of Roland Pym - I'll give him a call. Thanks for the tip.

    On the gearbox question I called a local Jap wrecking specialist (Perth) yesterday and inquired about 4-speeds, and the proprietor recommended the Volvo 3-speed with overdrive. Not quite a hard-sell!

    On another front, does anybody know anything about the V6 Renault 25? (Non-turbo). It appears that they produced 160bhp, but I can't seem to pin down the specs (e.g. some data suggests 2.5l and other sources indicate 2.9l capacity). I'm interested because I am considering changing direction on the Volvo motor and looking for one of these instead.

    Regards,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Careful... I think the Renault engine has a different bolt pattern at the bellhousing end.

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I believe there was a version of the 4hp22 auto in the volvo V6 range ???

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    That could make life interesting...

    It could be possible to use the Volvo automatic bellhousing with a sandwich plate to fit up a manual box. A very easy adaptation to use an auto bellhousing this way.

    That's if there is a separate bellhousing, of course... usually there is in the case of boxes like this that fit a multitude of cars.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    John,
    The Volvo version of the PRV is a good way to go, as the sweedes had injection on a fair few of the engines. A couple of guys up here in sunny QLD have grafted a volvo v6 with injection into a Fuego, goes very well from what I hear.
    I also know of a 505 GR wagon in Lismore NSW with the Volvo sourced V6. The gearbox was out of a Pug 604, and I think he used the injection from the vo'vo too. He says his wife frequently lights up the rear of the car at roundabouts etc. Would be a sight!! dance

    Cheers Chris
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Why would you want to go for an auto? question A manual is much better
    I would try to get a rhd bellhousing and a BA10/5. Failing that, try the modified bellhousing.
    Pugs Rule!

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  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    Pugnut403:
    Why would you want to go for an auto?
    This is not a sports car - it has to take me down the clogged up freeway every morning and afternoon, constantly slowing and even stopping in the traffic. A manual would drive me nuts within a week. Now, if I could go and live in the country again, or even have a Sunday car and a week-day car, then...
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    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    Cant_get_enough_of_peugeots:
    Hi Guys!!
    A Legend by the name of Roland Pym, brings Peugeot 505 V6 parts in from France/Germany and is always doing conversions, he will have all the tips you will need, and all the parts you will need.
    Thanks again for the lead. I called Roland and he was very surprised to hear of issues with the V6 and the 505 air-con and fan unit. He has done numerous conversions and never come across the problem! question I'm not particularly worried about the issue, as I will just bolt together my bits and measure them prior to fitting, but I found it fascinating that there could be two completely divergent views on such a point.

    My 505 is missing the insulation/fire barrier material from the air-con air box and fan so it may be that I have more room than most people anyway, but I will be most interested to see whether or not there is a space problem when I finally get to the point of measuring the lengths of the components.

    Cheers,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  21. #21
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    aquinian:
    I called Roland and he was very surprised to hear of issues with the V6 and the 505 air-con and fan unit. He has done numerous conversions and never come across the problem! question I'm not particularly worried about the issue, as I will just bolt together my bits and measure them prior to fitting, but I found it fascinating that there could be two completely divergent views on such a point. .
    John,

    I'd say Roland used the genuine 505 V6 mounts which mount the engine further forward than the 604 mounts which most people use (because that's what's avaiable in Australia). Roland has access to alot of overseas parts which almost nobody else has.

    Dave
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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    davemcbean:
    John,

    I'd say Roland used the genuine 505 V6 mounts which mount the engine further forward than the 604 mounts which most people use (because that's what's avaiable in Australia). Roland has access to alot of overseas parts which almost nobody else has.

    Dave
    Hi Dave,

    Do you know this, or is it a guess? If a guess, I'll call and ask him. If not, what do the 505 V6 mounts look like? What is the difference?

    Regards,
    John Lane.
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    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Looks as though Dave's guessing to me, but it's an educated guess. It's just what Roley would say to avoid giving away his 'secret' and that's exactly what you need to get the clearance.

    Wouldn't be hard to make an adaptor to take the engine forward a bit, I'd say 20mm would do it nicely.

  24. #24
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    I guess this means the drive shafts would be running at an angle,to say nothing of having to elongate the diff mounting holes.
    Graham Wallis

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    What sort of money is one looking at for a good Volvo V6 with all its hardware? Am thinking of putting one in R25 (either that or turboing the 4 pot).
    Also, what is the real world differance b/w odd and even fire? Does it make any difference to the way it drives?
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