Cheap 205 kW
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Thread: Cheap 205 kW

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Cheap 205 kW

    As my "hot" 205 8V engine cracked some pistons, I had to quickly find something to run in the Supersprints, so I could learn to drive the thing. So I turned to a low km 75kW engine I had under the bench. These engines were found in Aussie spec. Series 1 205 GTi's, 405's and Citroens around the '87-'90 era. They are stamped DFZ on the block.

    The main problem, from a performance point of view, is the low compression, 8.2:1. They also have small valves, 39mm inlet, like the early 1.6 GTi's. So it's an up hill battle. I didn't want to spend a lot of money, so the valves stayed, although I did blend the throats into the seats and matched the ports. To get the CR up, I took a massive 1.75mm off the head. This took it up to 9.6:1. I wanted more, so I then added a thinner copper head gasket, which took it up to 10:1. Apparently a 2mm is OK, but I thought I'd play it safe.

    To this, I added a reground cam from Camtech. It's called a 420 (238 deg. @ 0.050") It's a sporty profile which fits on the std. cam OK. I had to make new shims though, to get the valve clearances correct.

    This made a very sweet little motor which I ran at Eastern Creek yesterday for the first time. Idle is a tad lumpy @ 1000 RPM, but it smooths out by 1500 (ie you can tell it's not stock). Performance for dollars, it's a bargain. I haven't had it on the dyno, but it managed to pull 6500 in top gear down the straight (with 4.43 diff).

    Costs:
    head skim $60
    Cu head gasket $100
    reground cam $220
    vernier pulley ?
    new shims ?

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    Note that after skimming the head, the RH engine mount need holes need elongating, as there is one bolt in the block, and two in the head. If you're handy with a spanner, it's cheap power.

    <small>[ 31 July 2003, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: PeterT ]</small>

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  2. #2
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    PeterT:
    If you're handy with a spanner, it's cheap power.
    But 205kw????
    B to the R to the A from the D
    1994 MX5 Clubman...are you sure it's not French?

  3. #3
    Member ilek300's Avatar
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    i think he means extra kw FOR a 205 just wondering how the engine would hold up on the reliability end of things and if this would require an ecu change and a 3 bar fuel regulator to go in?

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Hi peter, my Bx has a DFZ engine aswell, i shaved .5mm off my head. I bought an Ivan Tighe cam and vernier pulley from Alan Moore which have been great (he used to have them in his 205). The cam is 420thou lift, 272deg advertised duration 244deg at 50thou. My car also has a lightened flywheel which seems to make a noticable difference in the lower gears.
    After reading your post i'm tempted to take another 1mm off the the head, although that engine mount bolt is a little tight already


  5. #5
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Peter,

    How did you go with the engine on the day, have you managed to locate the reason for the smoke screen you were leaving down the straight and in the pitbox?
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  6. #6
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Sorry, notice the gap between 205 and kW. I think it would be more like 100-105kW.

    I think it would work fine with a std. ECU and an adjustable regulator. You'd have to work on the advance curve though, which is easy with these early motors. I ran 10 deg. intitial and 30 deg. max. @ 3000 RPM.

    I dynoed the previous engine, which had a Grp. A cam, (251 deg. @ 50 thou.) and a std. inlet manifold. There is no way you could tune it with a std. ECU. It did some really weird stuff at light throttle, 4000 RPM. It required more fuel there than at full throttle, 4000 RPM!

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Yeah, it was the oil return line from the breather. Added a catch tank and all was well. Parry may have wipped my butt though. We'll have to wait for the times to be posted.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Peter,
    Where did you get the copper head gasket from?
    cheers,

    Dave


  9. #9
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    <a href="http://www.ridgecrest.com.au" target="_blank">www.ridgecrest.com.au</a>

    I used a 0.7mm Mi16 gasket. Their design has one water jacket hole missing though, which you can easily add.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    25-30 kw? Sounds a lot.
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Thanks for that Peter, now your tempting me to take my car off the road to have a tinker mallet


  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! AU-YT's Avatar
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    Interesting I built a Hot 8 valve by accident.
    Long story basically new Jaz head 2mm os valves In an exhaust. Group N cam (?high torque).
    Old Bosch ECU was not up to the Job.
    now has micrtech MT8 Sequenchial(cheap)
    My checks on the compression of the original 87 205 engine came out at a calculated 7.5:1
    60cc combustion chamber.
    New head(litterally) 10.3:1
    Internals are ceramic coated and has Samco hoses.
    On a dyno dynamic chassis dyno makes 160 ft at 2800 in top gear at the wheels.
    car is very tractable and is still pulling at the red line

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I checked my notes, I had the following on a virgin DFZ.

    head 49cc
    gasket (1.32mm) 7.32cc
    piston dish 9cc
    squish (0.02mm) - 0.1cc

    CR 8.29:1

    What's a Jaz head?

    I've got a welded head having the chambers machined now. I'd be interested to see how they compare. I'm going to put the Grp. A cam back into that.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I guessed a 100kW (134hp) given that a std. UK spec. GTi has 130hp and late model Aussie cars have 90kW. It definitely goes harder than the 90kW GTi I owned.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Sorry, I understated the cam. It's 238 deg. @ 50 thou., not 221. Some grinders categorise it as a Stage 2.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  16. #16
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    PeterT:
    Yeah, it was the oil return line from the breather. Added a catch tank and all was well. Parry may have wipped my butt though. We'll have to wait for the times to be posted.
    this could be the answer to my smoky problem. I only notice the smoke when i park my car on my driveway which is steep...
    There is somethign inthe engine bay with a couple of hoses coming out of it, one hose goes into the manifold(or the pipe coming out of it, can't remember). Well this black can looking thing is just dangling there..looks like its mounting points broke..

    Does this explain much?

    <small>[ 21 May 2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Pugsly ]</small>

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    The filler (large) and return (small) hoses get hard over time and become kinked, under the inlet manifold. More than likely the problem.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  18. #18
    Member ilek300's Avatar
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    i'm just wondering, if i were to go do these mods would it be best to go for a vernier pulley? if so how much do they set you back and where would i be able to get one from?

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Had a very successfull session on the dyno. With the mods. described above, we achieved 100hp @ the wheels, easily. With some furher tweaking of ignition and fuel maps, it managed 107hp, with a very flat torque curve.

    Converted to flywheel hp:

    100 hp @ wheels = 134 hp (100kW) @ flywheel
    107 hp @ wheels = 143 hp (107kW) @ flywheel

    Now that is better than a UK 1.9 205, and just 1 kW short of an Aussie S1 Mi16.

    Cheap horsepower.

    I've got a spare head if anyone's interested. Taking orders now.

    <small>[ 31 July 2003, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: PeterT ]</small>

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  20. #20
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    Peter,

    This sounds great!! you've got mail

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    This was with the Haltec computer Peter?

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Yes and no. We achieved 100hp with the std. 205 ignition curve. It would be easy to modify a distributor to get the rest.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Initial run with very rich mixtures, followed by 75kW @ the wheels:

    <img src="http://intranet.kings.edu.au/~pwt/dyno1.jpg" alt=" - " />

    Then 80kW @ the wheels. Graph is from 5000rpm onwards:

    <img src="http://intranet.kings.edu.au/~pwt/dyno2.jpg" alt=" - " />

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  24. #24
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    PeterT:
    The main problem, from a performance point of view, is the low compression, 8.2:1. They also have small valves, 39mm inlet, like the early 1.6 GTi's.
    Peter,

    Just out of interest, do you know the exact valve sizes for these "small valve" engines? Is the exhaust valve also smaller?

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Yes, they're 33.0, rather than 34.5 as found in the other varieties.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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