505/4 engine swaps: Jap engines
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  1. #1
    Gus
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    505/4 engine swaps: Jap engines

    OK... a few people have been suggesting this lately so I thought I'd add my 2c, and see what people thought.

    I thought about this about 3 months back, and emailed the US' Peugeot-L about it, and had a good conversation with Dave Mcbean on the subject.

    (First, a note on the philosophy. If 505 Turbos were sold here, I'd have bought one. Those engines seem tough, powerful, moddable and best of all - fast. But they weren't sold here. Hence, if you want a fast 505, you gotta build it yourself...)

    So, if I had unlimited time, budget, and working space - here's my dream "fast" 505:

    Engine
    Nissan SR20DET. Four-cylinder 2.0L turbo from the Syliva/180SX/200SX. Tough, fast, moddable with an excellent stock engine-management system. Used for all kinds of engine conversions, the most popular being the Datsun 1600. Available in Australia relatively cheaply from import wreckers. Bought in a front cut you get all the electricals and other bits included.

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    You will need to have made: Engine mounts, Quite possibly a custom crossmember, an exhaust and most likely make yourself some kind of hybrid air intake. You'll also need to spend a lot of time doing wiring and splicing the Pug and Nissan looms together.

    You'd also need to look into whether the steering (esp. power steering if you want it) will fit around the engine in its current position.

    Cooling System
    Stock 505 radiator will probably not cut it. I don't know what the 505 Turbos had in the way of radiators.

    <a href="http://www.vectorbd.com/users/jpl/505t.html">Jim Lill</a>, for his dream 505 Turbo road rally-er, had a custom radiator made up... This would be expensive, but may be the way to go.

    (Subtle) bonnet vents at the rear of the bonnet may be a good idea to handle excess heat (I understand that modded up 505 V6s are known to sometimes have engine bay heat problems.)

    Intercooler
    I guess it either goes where the AC condensor goes, in front of the radiator, or you top mount it and put on a WRX bonnet scoop! (I'm joking, I'm joking!!! But <a href="http://www.geocities.com/dkadarisman/images/505/505_6a.htm">how's this for a bonnet scoop!</a> ) A 505 Turbo intercooler, if you could get one, might do the trick.

    Gearbox
    Apparently the stock BA7/5 gearboxes can handle large amounts of power and torque w/o dying. You could prolly have a flywheel adapter made to bolt right on.

    I wouldn't. Apparently, there's a 504 in Sydney with a Celica 5-speed in it. AFAIK, you need to make mounts and mod the tailshaft end so there's something for the propeller tube to bolt onto, and mod the tailshaft (of course), but these are IMHO less complex mods (the gearbox costs more, though.) It also gives you access to Supra boxes, which come with a range of gear ratios (and a six speed!)

    Moreover, Dellow Automotive in Sydney have a range of adapters to bolt Celica/Supra boxes to a huge <a href="http://wwwrsphysse.anu.edu.au/~amh110/supra_in_volvo.htm">variety of engines</a>. I'm guessing that SR20s are included.

    Clutch
    I'd suggest not using anything fancy for the clutch. Better to burn it out than kill the gearbox or the diff(!)

    Diff
    Stock 505 diffs are meant to be pretty tough.

    Suspension
    Personally, I'd try to find someone in the US to sell me an original 505 Turbo suspension setup (or a Danielson one if I could find it!!). But this would be expensive to ship. Otherwise, I understand the stiffest 505 suspension in Oz was the GTi Series I, with a 604 rear swaybar (correct?) This is probably not stiff enough for the amount of power you'll be delivering, which is unfortunate cos going non-Peugeot in the suspension destroys the whole point of making a fast one in the first place!!

    Brakes
    Stock 505 brakes should be enough for an engineer's approval, but I'd go 604 rotors (bolt right on) and callipers.

    Alternatively, if you had a Series II you could use the ABS system. I don't know anything about it (was it ever sold in Australia?)

    Insurance

    eek! eek! Who knows what a modified vehicle insurer would charge to insure such a beast?

    Of course, it'd be very tempting to just use the car for racing or even rallying.

    Anyhow, I'm hoping this might give some ideas or provoke some comments. After getting this far, I figured to do the job right you'd need close to $8-10,000 (including the cost of a good 505 body to start with) and this is too much for me right now (especially cos you can get an Mi16 for not much more!)

    That said, if anyone wants to do this then get in touch before you have anything made up. If we get more than one done at a time we can probably get it a little cheaper.

  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Cooling System
    Stock 505 radiator will probably not cut it. I don't know what the 505 Turbos had in the way of radiators.

    Jim Lill, for his dream 505 Turbo road rally-er, had a custom radiator made up... This would be expensive, but may be the way to go.

    (Subtle) bonnet vents at the rear of the bonnet may be a good idea to handle excess heat (I understand that modded up 505 V6s are known to sometimes have engine bay heat problems.)
    grab a holden 253 radiator to fit in
    they need to be shortened in height a little but they provide excellent cooling in a 504/505

    Suspension
    Personally, I'd try to find someone in the US to sell me an original 505 Turbo suspension setup (or a Danielson one if I could find it!!). But this would be expensive to ship. Otherwise, I understand the stiffest 505 suspension in Oz was the GTi Series I, with a 604 rear swaybar (correct?) This is probably not stiff enough for the amount of power you'll be delivering, which is unfortunate cos going non-Peugeot in the suspension destroys the whole point of making a fast one in the first place!!
    plenty of options here
    i have used pedders in the past and have used jumbos springs in liverpool that will make up springs to your specs for not a lot of money and they also re-temper sway bars as well
    sometimes this is a lot easier than trying to scavange or source the parts from another car
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  3. #3
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    I think as far as jap import engines go, the SR20DET has got to be one of the best options - one day when I have a place with a large garage I'll probably go about doing this conversion.

    A mate has a 200sx which is very streetable (not very laggy... but I'd much rather the GTi6 under 3500rpm) with nearly 200Kws at the wheels - hot damn what a drive!

    In a Peugeot, it would be even better (he'd kill me if he heard me say that!)

    I'm thinking how hard would it be to put in the SR with the silvia 5 speed, then surely it'd just be modified gearbox mounts and a custom tailshaft?

    I wonder if the lexus 1UZFE 4.0L alloy V8 would fit too.. they're not particularly heavy. I'd be weighing up these two options.

    Cheers,
    Adrian

  4. #4
    Gus
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    In a Peugeot, it would be even better (he'd kill me if he heard me say that!)


    I'm thinking how hard would it be to put in the SR with the silvia 5 speed, then surely it'd just be modified gearbox mounts and a custom tailshaft?
    Yeah, you're right. The thousand dollar question is whether the gear lever will fit without too much mucking around... You may also have to "massage" the transmission tunnel to make it fit (Supra/Celica boxes, as I understand, are particularly skinny.) The only way to know for sure is probably to get a Silvia box and try (does anyone know if the dimensions and maybe even diagrams for this stuff can be had anywhere??)
    I've also had no luck finding out which gear ratios were used in these boxes... Fortunately the range of diff ratios for 50Xs may overcome this (and the gear ratios will naturally be better matched to the SR20.)

    I wonder if the lexus 1UZFE 4.0L alloy V8 would fit too.. they're not particularly heavy. I'd be weighing up these two options.
    Fair enough. I always figured "Lexus=Pricey" but it's prolly a sliding scale .

  5. #5
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    The V8 shouldn't be too expensive - they're found in those Toyota Soarer SC400 imports and they can be had for around 25k.. so I don't imagine a half cut would be that expensive. It would be more expensive than the SR20DET but apparently they're a gorgeous powerplant.

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    The C18DET (1800) would proberly fit a bit better than the SR20. (more room to work with).
    The thing with the suspension, is that you would want it to be STABLE when giving the power to the wheels, or at high speeds. You would want strut braces, larger custom sway bar for the rear.The 18mm, and 19mm rear peugeot sway bars would proberley make it a bit sloppy in the rear when giving it lots of gas with this type of application
    JoFuS

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Other considerations would be a cheap and cheerfull Holden V6 commy engine ( i can feel the hits coming on now)... parts and bit are very cheap and once you remove the a/c stuff its not bulky at all, fit a Capa supercharger and u'll have 200++Kw and monster tourque. Theres is so much out there for these commy donks that ull save plenty, as for suspension, try talking to BBX in UK as they campained a cheap 505... i think? wicked dream though..........X
    ... ptui!

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    I read in zoom or one of those about a bloke who picked a lexus 1uzfe for 1200 bucks wacked on two turbo and got 600Kws. I have measured the lexus 1uzfe and it would fit!! he he. The engine bay of a 504! couple of problems thow the radiator support would need modification and the sway bar would have to be dropped down an inch. the 504 4 cyl sits 100 mil forward of the firewall and you would need to bring the lexus back by at least 50mil for it to fit a radiator. the sump is in the right position. mounts would need to be constructed. Does any Know how the people who fit different gearboxs deal with the propshaft housing?

  9. #9
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    AlsPug504:
    Does any Know how the people who fit different gearboxs deal with the propshaft housing?
    I know somebody who used a Celica 5 speed in a 504. It just required an alloy flange to be welded to the rear housing of the Celica box, and the 504 torque/link tube and tailshaft had to be shortened to suit, and a Celica spline had to be welded to the front of the tailshaft. The gear stick ended up being in a better position (easier to reach) than the original gear stick.

    Dave

  10. #10
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    Gus, if you're serious about the conversion, I've got a mate with a spare S14 box out of the car and can measure it up for you..

    Also, I have an excel spreadsheet of all the gear ratios.

    Thought this may help as it's easy to get a sr20det s14 or s13 front cut, and seems like it'd be the most cost effective way to do it.

    If you take this approach, I'd be interested in following your progress as I will do this conversion one day.

    Cheers,
    Adrian

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    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Excellent thanks Dave. I am fairly sure there now conversion kit to bolt the celica box to the lexus! Gee seriously considering this amusing conversion!! dance

  12. #12
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    >>> Gee guys,what a coincidence.I was just looking at the 505 and the rb25det mating process.Seems pretty possible with all rb stuff from the rb radiator till the rb gearbox output.Then on it seems difficult as the rb g/box has tube drive shaft whilst the 505 has a solid fixed type.We had made some measurements and found that the original 505's rear diff height cannot be maintained as its stuck way up to the under of the rear seats and its also fixed.So the only easier way seems to be to maintain the 505 items from the diff till the g/box and work on mating the rb fly to the 505 g/box spline.Tough one this is and reliability on the mating point could be an issue...rb25 does put out 280 ponnies!

    cheers

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    puginfo:
    >>Tough one this is and reliability on the mating point could be an issue...rb25 does put out 280 ponnies!
    The reliable torque limit for a road car using the Peugeot BA10 gearbox is supposedly around 290-300Nm. The reliable torque limit of the much more common BA7 is somewhere above 200Nm. Some people have used the BA7 with the carby 3.5 litre Rover V8, which puts out about 250Nm, but gearbox reliability suffered when driven hard, so I think it would be fair to say that 225Nm would be pushing the maximum safe limit for a BA7, if the car is driven hard. All standard manual RWD Peugeots with over 200Nm were fitted with the BA10 (V6, turbo diesel, turbo petrol). The maximum torque that these cars were ever sold with, was 280Nm in the Peugeot motorsport version of the 505 Turbo petrol. In production car racing, 330Nm was put through the BA10 in the 505 Turbo, running about 15psi of boost (but they didn't have to do very many kms, compared with a road car).

    Dave

    <small>[ 14 September 2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    the sus istnt to bad at higher speeds in the 505..

    I regually travel from Taree up to Newcastle (about 160so kms) and cruising effortlessly in my STI at 150/160 isnt a concern at all.. Allthough shitning noisy, the car still feels very sure footed. 170 she startes to get a bit loose. i supose.. but fook.. what would'nt bar a GT3? or .. well a few other lovly cars.. mm lexus.. mm even comodore i supose..

    Yeah .. actually.. sus wouldnt need work. LOLOL

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  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Has anyone ever contemplated what's involved in fitting a Camry engine?

    They come in 2.0 and 2.2 litres, are very fuel efficient and leave 504 engines in the shade for power, quietness and so on, while they seem to match it for flexibility.

    The most critical thing would be the sump shape, I guess. Which is usually dictated by where the oil pump is, so it's an important point.

    My dad has one of these things, I must have a bit of a look, though to thoroughly check it out you'd need to see one out of a car.

  16. #16
    nJm
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    I think the early-mid 90s Camry 2.2 had about 94kw? If so it would bring a pug up to the power levels of the 505 GTi, with more flexibility and better refinement (what it always lacked apparently).

    cheers!
    Nick
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    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Let's face it, the XN engine dates back to 1959, really... and as a 2-litre to 1969.

    The Camry has only been around about 14 years or so, and so it fits into the modern idiom of good sound engineering - even exceeds some in that area - and compulsory power and fuel economy delivery.

    The cam belts must save some noise level...

  18. #18
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    Ray Bell:
    Has anyone ever contemplated what's involved in fitting a Camry engine?

    leave 504 engines in the shade for power.
    Ray,

    You're joking right? The 2.2 litre Camry engine has 93kW and 185Nm, which is less than what you get from a 504TI engine fitted with longer inlet runners, bigger valves and a few other things which come to less than the cost of a Camry engine.

    Like all Toyota engines, the Camry engine is well designed, but it's not anything special. Undersquare dimensions of 87x91mm and small valves, mean it's purely an economy engine. Good for what it is, but there's plenty better around. The 2 litre Ford Mondeo Zetec blows the Camry engine away for both power and economy (97-102kW and 35-40mpg in the city) and even they're pretty ordinary compared with alot of the other stuff around.

    Toyota's range of big valve oversquare 16 valve engines are the real good stuff (4AGE, 3T-G, 18RG, 3S-G, etc).

    Actually alot of the cheaper 16V engines designed in the last 15 years are pretty ordinary compared with those designed in the 70s and early 80s. In the 70s and 80s, 16V engines were very much designed as big valve high performance engines, whereas most designed in the last 15 years are small valve, swirl inducing economy set-ups. They do produce reasonable power, but they don't have as much potential as some of the earlier high performance engines.

    As far as economy goes, you also have to take into account aerodynamics. A modern engine installed in a 504/505 body won't get the same economy as if it were installed in its original more aerodynamic one.

    Dave

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Fuel economy is a pretty important aspect to me, Dave.

    While I accept that there may be some aerodynamic differences, I wouldn't think them to be that great.

    What is 93kw in the real money anyway? And what does the big valve/long inlet runner setup do for economy?

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Another point, Dave... modern cars are also relatively heavy.

    I don't know what the Camry weighs, but I'm sure that it's more than the 504.

  21. #21
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    Ray Bell:
    Another point, Dave... modern cars are also relatively heavy.

    I don't know what the Camry weighs, but I'm sure that it's more than the 504.
    The mid-1990s Camry is about 85kg heavier than a 504 sedan (1315kg as opposed to 1230kg).

    93kW is about 124hp.

    The long inlet runner conversion on a 504TI should improve economy if anything, as would raising the compression, of course. The big inlet valves would probably cause a slight drop in economy on a carby engine due to reduced airspeed, but this shouldn't be a factor on a TI because the fuel is injected straight through the valve and so the airspeed is not needed to keep the fuel in suspension. A Wade 112 cam has slightly more duration and lift than a TI cam and also makes the engine rev alot smoother. On the carby engine I've used it in it seemed to make no difference to economy, so it should also be a good cam in a TI. A big bore manifold should help economy slightly too.

    My round port engine with a Weber and Wade 112 cam got about 29mpg on the freeway, with the 4 speed gearbox. The 5 speed seemed to make no difference to economy.

    I don't think it would be too hard to build a 125hp, 185Nm TI motor using the standard injection pump and the mods outlined above, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was capable of more than 35mpg on the freeway. Beyond 130hp would probably require an injection pump with a different cam profile.

    The 140hp 504 TI kit that used to be available in France in the early 1970s had many of the mods outlined above, together with a bigger throttle body, special extractors, a much wilder camshaft and different injection pump cam profile. I don't think it would have been very economical due to the cam timing they probably used.

    the specs for that engine were:

    -long inlet runners
    -big throttle body
    -cleaned up ports
    -44.5mm inlet valve
    -37.5mm exhaust
    -domed pistons to give 9.5:1 compression
    -camshaft with much more duration and more lift, requiring valve cutouts in the pistons (although this would probably have been required anyway due to the domed pistons)
    -special extractors

    To get 125hp, I would use the following:
    -valves and head as above
    -long inlet runners
    -big bore exhaust manifold and engine pipe
    -8.8:1 pistons, with head shaved atleast 1mm to give 9.6:1 compression or more (valve cutouts will be needed to be put in the piston crowns)
    -slightly wilder cam than standard (Wade 112)
    -tuned on a Dyno by somebody experienced in Kugelfisher injection

    -the most expensive bit of the above would be having larger valves fitted to the head, but if you find the right engine machineshop it should be well under $500 to do that (especially workshops in Western Sydney which serve the housing commission areas).

    Don't forget that whenever you fit a different engine (like the Camry engine) you'll be paying atleast $500, usually, just for the Engineers certificate, let alone paying for the engine and all the mods to fit it to the car.

    Dave

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yes, you're right about that...

    These long runners, do you just put a longer bit of hose in between the manifold and the throttle body?

  23. #23
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    dave how far can the cam be taken before you run out of vaccuum for the TI pump ?
    i was under the impression that it wasn't a lot
    i was going to go pretty wild a few years ago but couldn't get a wild enough cam for my liking without losing the TI pump
    i had to go carbs on it
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  24. #24
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    Ray Bell:
    Yes, you're right about that...

    These long runners, do you just put a longer bit of hose in between the manifold and the throttle body?
    You put some pieces of steel or alloy tubing between the existing runners and the plenum chamber, and connect them with rubber hose at each end, taking care to make sure that all the diameters match up smoothly. It requires new fuel lines to be made, of course. Check the rally car engine bay picture at:
    <a href="http://www.geocities.com/davemcbean/fiveohXengines.html" target="_blank">www.geocities.com/davemcbean/fiveohXengines.html</a>

    Sean,

    Yeah, with the stock pump I wouldn't go much wilder than stock, that's why I suggested the Wade 114, which is barely wilder (266 degrees duration as opposed to 260 for the TI cam), but can give a slight increase power (up to 5% on its own) and makes the engine smoother at higher revs, although it is a tad more tappety sounding at idle. It works well in conjunction with other mods to make a good tractable and economical road engine.

    I'm not sure what they did with the injection pumps on the rally cars with wild cams, to make them run properly at low revs when the vacuum is wildly fluctuating (maybe they didn't run properley at low revs).

    Dave

    <small>[ 22 October 2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

  25. #25
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Dave... is it a 112 or 114 that you recommend?

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