PRV questions...
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Jason Morris's Avatar
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    PRV questions...

    Hi guys. Well, here's some food for thought :

    I'm Looking ahead to the demise of the XN1A in my '89 505GR Familiale evil (carby 'export' version : ex-hong kong with A/C, elec win, & OIL BATH !!). Someone mentioned once that the V6 wagon idea had been done a couple of times. I know the PRV tends to have a lot of bad press, I'd be interested to know what sort of good side it has. Is it typically a silky smooth beast? The worst scenario would be ending up with a Triumph 2.5 like feel - hard to describe with text, but many of us can imitate the characteristic sluggish engine roar coupled to auto box noise, in those cars this was accompanied by no acceleration, and several litres of petrol clown !!!

    Anyone driving the earlier carb version - what sort of MPG do you really get ? With a recent carb change on the 505, I got about 29mpg towing recently (yes, we all know it runs lean....do a search on pinging/pinking..). In our local Pug car club economy runs, a 604 reportedly gets around 35+ (open road,warmed up,tail wind, oh, and being towed ?)

    It seems to me that transplanting in the 2.2OHC injected engine could be more work - for a start I figure it's best to forget the K-Jetronic and go with the LE-2 version, so having to bring all the electic bits over. The fuel tank/pump changes are another problem. Maybe the worst to solve is the bell housing onto my 4HP22 box, the housing for the 'vertical' Z?J motor may be impossible to find over here. I have to say that ecen not being an auto box fan, the 4HP22 is pretty nice as long as the engine is pulling well.

    So, a carby PRV option : does anyone have aything good to say...(dangerous question I know)
    PugRambo - are your 604's carby or injected ? One other slight possibility if going the carby PRV path is the option of installing a single-point injection/TBI system at a later point. There are some great *free* plans on the net, and being an electronics engineer the building is no prob. Definately not interested in the K-jet version, those fuel metering pumps/disis give me the willys!

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    What is the exhaust layout on the V6 505's ? Two-into one at some point ? The 505 wagons have that bizzaire second muffler with the 90deg pipe entry/exit.

    There seem to be a reasonable supply of dead 604 / Volvo V6 cars around, so it may also not mean an additional mortgage...

    Last,last thought: auto box change-up settings, I hear that they are different according to engine
    size/spec. Are they easily changed by a competent gearbox shop - what does it entail ?

    Thanks,
    Jason

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Jason Morris's Avatar
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    No, thought of one more thing - unleaded petrol. Does anyone know which PRV variants have hardened valve seats ?

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Mr lower Hutt member
    i know this little town well
    anyway the 604's that i have here are carby'd
    i run electronic ignition from a volvo but remember there is odd and even fire engines.
    to tell the difference look under the cap and check the lobes on the shaft.
    even fire the lobes will be spaced evenly
    odd fire they will be grouped in 3 pairs.
    i am thinking of converting to injection whenever i get around to it but if you want to stay carby'd put a weber 38 or 40 synchrounius carb on it with the low comp inlet manifold that is designed for the single carb in place of the standard two carb setup they arrived with.
    also if staying with carb run a cold air intake and you will improve fuel consumption and performance as the standard air cleaner suck in hot air from the rear of the engine bay
    as for your auto box make an adaptor plate of around 10mm thick to fit your box or if you feel so inclined run a 5 spd box
    all prv engines have the hardened seats so you can run unleaded but i would advise running premium in them and occasionaly put some lead additive in or some upper cylinder lube
    these engines will ping on normal unleaded under load.
    one 604 i had a few years ago had electronic ign with 5 spd and single weber with cold air on low comp inlet maifold and on average used to return 29-32 mpg on a trip to give you some idea
    standard 604 exhaust manifolds exit in the middle of the manifold so placement of the exhaust is pretty easy
    any other questions just ask
    btw pretty easy to get these engines to really perform as they are very under stressed and under tuned
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  4. #4
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i recieved this email from our friendly kiwi neighbour and thought it would go well here for any other ideas from all you talented people here on this board

    (1: engine choice)
    Pondering your response over the day (whilst driving to/from work, hope I'm
    concentrating) the first thing I thought of was : On XN series motors, the
    heads/ports are all different depending on whether it's a Ti/ Carby etc, and
    cant interchange manifolds. With the PRV, can I take any motor and stick
    whatever intake manifold/fuel system I like on it ? e.g. get an ex-Volvo 264
    K-jet lump, change to an easy carby manifold to get me started without all
    the fuel plumbing dramas ?? I'm not familiar with the range of engines
    available - you talked about a single carb manifold - what car would I find
    one of these on ? surely not the dreaded 604 setup ?!

    (2: mating to box)
    The other main dilema is the bell housing issue - I've never had to look at
    adaptor plates before, but I had mates that got into that sort of thing. I
    have real easy access to a ton of workshop gear/help - NC mills/lathes - you
    name it, so I could consider making one up. What's the basic idea - surely
    it stuffs up the loads/spacing on the gearbox input shaft, or is there
    enough depth on the splines usually ? When making the plate, do you usually
    go from tech drawings of the motor/box, or is it purely hard-core
    measurement stuff ? (i can imagine that 0.5mm misalignment would wear things
    out pretty quick !)

    (3: miscellaneous rantings)
    I'm betting on having standard hassles with waterpumps/radiators/ plumbing
    etc, but not worried about them. The fuel system is really the thing - I
    want best economy, so I reckon the electronic injection would beat a K-jet
    or carb. Being an electronics engineer, I think that if I could build one
    using a single throttle body onto the single carb manifold you talk about,
    that could be the way to go for me. I presume a genuie orig electronic
    injection version like an orig 505 V6 or Volvo 740 motor is too expensive
    still.

    I guess the other thing I should consider is the extractor question,
    depending on cost.(assuming that better flow can give EITHER better economy
    and better power too depending on driving style!?) Are there still plans
    afoot to get a batch made ?

    After doing the post on the PRV questions, I was offered a great 2.2OHC
    ex-GTi motor with all the workings (ECU/Pumps etc) for NZ$400 ! But the lure
    of the V6 still calls....! AND, i'd still be up for the bell housing prob,
    so hey, might as well have the extra grunt !

    You could copy/paste this blurb into the forum if you think it would be of
    general interest!
    (see - you'll be regretting your offer now !)
    Thanks again
    Jason

    point one
    very early V6 engines didn't have the little notch in the inlet port for the injectors but is very easy to put in with a file but in answer to your question yes you can interchange between injection and carb manifolds.
    the swedish low comp (8.2:1) had the single carb manifold. they take a little finding but they are available normally for around $150AU

    point two
    the idea of adaptor plates has been around for many years and has aided in putting all sorts of engines into all sorts of cars. ie holden 186 into a 203 with standard box
    for more common cars you can actually buy these plates but with froggy gear we have to make do to make our own
    just ensure that you keep the centre line through the crankshaft in line with the g/box shaft
    when i ever get around to it i will be doing a similar thing with fitting a small jap 5 spd up to a 405 Mi16 engine into a 203

    point three
    you could possibly try and modify a ford throttle body injection system as they are pretty common and use samller injectors from something else
    i'd say you will have to re-map the ecu but from the sounds of it you are already on top of that
    the only thing is trying to get the firing order right for the V6 as the early ones were odd fire.

    as for the extractors i think dave was also looking into getting something done about them as well
    there is a set sitting on an engine that i would like to get some dimensions from to help us along the way again to do this. they are a little rough but they are there and provide a very good base to work from
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  5. #5
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Sorry, I've been meaning to get back to everybody about the extractors. Jim Lill (from the US club) gave me this info he measured from some 504 V6 rally car extractors:

    -all 6 pipes are between 24" and 25"
    -OD of these pipes is 1.605"
    -ID is 1.435"
    -collector takes the 3 pipes into a 2.25" pipe

    He had good advice on getting a "prototype" made
    (Flex tubing, I assume is that flexible centipede section-like steel tube stuff):

    - take the known dimensions
    - make the flanges and tack weld on some ugly flex tubing
    - figure out how to squeeze the 3 25 inch lengths of pipe into the
    head/wheelwell area
    - tack weld the flex tubing to shape
    - take that mess to a real bender, make final pipes

    OK, Pugrambo, what do you think? One of us is going to have to be the guy who makes up the prototype. Somebody with access to a V6 and a spare 5-4/604 engine bay (whatever fits in these should fit in a 505).

    People that have expressed interest so far in getting a batch made are:
    -myself
    -Pugrambo
    -Con Engel
    -Graham Wallis

    People I have yet to ask but who may be interested:
    -the Goodwin Brothers at Cessnock (for their V6 504)
    -Brendan Rogers (a guy in Sydney with a V6 504)
    -Chris Lynch (a guy in Newcastle who has a couple of V6 pugs)
    -Robert Cherry (Victorian V6 enthusiast)

    Can anyone think of anyone else?

    Regards,
    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    I'm interested. Did this ever happen, and if so, how much and when can you deliver?
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    aquinian:
    I'm interested. Did this ever happen, and if so, how much and when can you deliver?
    Sorry, the project died due to lack of interest and because I lost interest in V6 conversions because I got my 2 litre 4 cylinder 505 to go so damn well with a few cheap mods (cam, head, weber, flywheel, exhaust).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  8. #8
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Norm Smith has a set of extractors that you might be able to borrow to have copied...

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    I been reading on valve seats. There are remarks to the affect that It was on old american iron heads that had soft seats. Once the switch to alloy heads was made the harder seat were fitted. I suspect that there are varying types of seats you can get however it seems the alloy head stuff was up to scratch I also heard the same remarks from one of mobils engineers.

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    So my TI heads are old American cast iron heads?

    Remember when unleaded fuel came in? Remember you used to be able to get a list of older cars that could run on unleaded or a 50% mix?

    That list was based on octane requirement and valve seat material. There was a lot of variety in the cars listed in that list...

  11. #11
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    So my TI heads are old American cast iron heads?..
    Ray,

    I think that TI head of yours must have had a dodgy batch of seats, since many other Pug engines seem to get way with using unleaded fuel, for ages.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by davemcbean
    Ray Bell
    So my TI heads are old American cast iron heads?..
    Ray,

    <strong>I think that TI head of yours must have had a dodgy batch of seats, since many other Pug engines seem to get way with using unleaded fuel, for ages.

    Dave
    Dave, it happened with two heads...

    Note the subtle changes in the quotes above?

    The first one lost a heap out of one seat and the others survived... giving me reason to think that might have been a dodgy seat.

    The second lost the aforementioned 15thou in 1700kms out of each seat. Giving me reason to think I'd been lucky the first time round.

    Also consider the miles I do, often towing the trailer, always sitting on 110kmh or something similar.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    No it has alloy heads. So I think the seats are likley to be ok! In referance to PRV heads the volvo ran unleaded anyway!

    I reckon for the seat to go twice, is either bad luck! Or alternativly there is another problem? Most likely related to quantity of fuel your engine burns and produces useful work for vs the quantity of fuel your useing.

    That list was based on octane requirement and valve seat material

    Yeah, and if that is an issue you could switch to premiem it has the same octane as leaded and better than LRP!

    <small>[ 14 May 2003, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Not all alloy heads are OK on unleaded. You can still put soft seats in an alloy head.
    I am helping a friend to restore a Humber Vogue Sport. These had an alloy head, but old style soft seats. It is going to cost around $200 to have the seats and exhaust valves replaced with unleaded grade ones.
    BTW, when I was running my 604 everyday, I never put a drop of Premium in it. It worked OK, but I think it might have been more powerful if I had used Premium.
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
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    2010 Mitsubishi i MiEV electric car

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by AlsPug504
    <strong>No it has alloy heads. So I think the seats are likely to be ok! In referance to PRV heads the volvo ran unleaded anyway!

    I reckon for the seat to go twice, is either bad luck! Or alternativly there is another problem? Most likely related to quantity of fuel your engine burns and produces useful work for vs the quantity of fuel your useing.

    That list was based on octane requirement and valve seat material

    Yeah, and if that is an issue you could switch to premiem it has the same octane as leaded and better than LRP!
    You don't seem to follow the thread of things, AlsPug...

    It was two different heads, both in excellent condition, one went on after the other. Both seemed to be original.

    If there was any problem other than the seats being unsuited, why would the fuel catalyst fix it overnight?

    Sure, the PRV engine might have hard seats, but they were made in a different plant and in a different era to the TI heads I have.

    And it's nothing to do with octane rating.

    Pugnut... there should be no need to replace the valves unless they're worn out. They're not a problem, only the seats.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    It was two different heads, both in excellent condition, one went on after the other. Both seemed to be original

    It does matter a fig what era what seats!
    Once repaired:

    To put simply ray, you have put a band aid fix on. You are not dealing with the main event, by putting that device in there! I am actually saying you need not cash out for such things if you know how to stop the problem b4 it starts! I am suggesting there is another way.

    That list was based on octane requirement and valve seat material. There was a lot of variety in the cars listed in that list...

    was it not you that made those remarks? that is were my remark about octane was from!

    Al

    <small>[ 14 May 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Of course I made 'that remark' about octane rating and valve seat material.

    Now I ask you to think about it...

    If they made the list only on a valve seat material basis, then what would happen to the cars with higher compression ratios?

    Of course, they'd detonate on normal unleaded...

    So if the octane requirement was higher than unleaded provided, they couldn't go on the list - irrespective of valve seat material.

    As for my 'Band-Aid fix... well, I didn't have a head with the hard seats in it at that time, and I had the head off the car, another head on hand and distance to cover.

    With only one seat having eroded, I thought it was possible I had just a crook one in the batch. I took the only chance I could take under the circumstances. When it didn't work I immediately got the 'Band-Aid'... which was cheaper than getting seats put in and quicker than doing the head job again when I had to have the car on the road.

    It won't go to waste. Although I have had two heads re-seated, I will have at least one car needing a bit of a helping hand, and the thing lasts 1.5 million kms.

    Cost?

    $150.

    Now... onto another issue...

    Do you think you could learn how to click on the quote marks when you want to quote someone?

    See how neat it turns out when others do it? It could be the same for you... and it would make it easier for others to read your posts.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    I was told that the standard exhaust valves were not suitable for unleaded. The inlets are fine.
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
    404, project
    2010 Mitsubishi i MiEV electric car

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The valves are not the problem... they are usually made of pretty good stuff.

    If you do get replacements, you should make sure they are at least better than the existing ones or all you are doing is paying money to put the same back in.

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Can you try posting that again, AlsPug, and put it in some kind of order so we can see what you're saying?

    Try the quote again and put your answer after the quote.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    Now I ask you to think about it...

    If they made the list only on a valve seat material basis, then what would happen to the cars with higher compression ratios?
    They (Car manufactures?) change the quality of vaporisation of fuel. Shorter chains of hydrocarbons, or lighter materials have higher octane values Ie Dodecane v Hexane. Ray did you consider that the compression ratio is not always related changes in the cylinder pressure? Cam timeing relating to valve opening durations and lift changes the amount of air in the cylinder and so to the pressure.

    Ray Bell:Of course, they'd detonate on normal unleaded...
    The change in the quality of vaporisation of fuel. Intern prevents chain branching, hence autoignition, ping, or detonation.

    Better vaporisation enables you to use less fuel. Your vsr problem could have been your opportunity to get the head damage and bandaid money back in fuel saved.

    Other benifits are that your engine would generate less heat to damage valves. Whilst maintaining your power and reducing emissions HC's by weight, NOX, CO. Whilst increasing O2!

    Ray Bell:
    So if the octane requirement was higher than unleaded provided, they couldn't go on the list
    true, however as far as resolving Vsr is concerned, it has not resolved the problem!

    better??

    <small>[ 16 May 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    .....Better vaporisation enables you to use less fuel. Your vsr problem could have been your opportunity to get the head damage and bandaid money back in fuel saved.....
    This bit is clear and understandable... but raises the question:

    How would this be?

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    [/QUOTE]This bit is clear and understandable...[/qb]

    The Post or remark??
    [quote]Ray Bell:
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by AlsPug504:
    [qb].....Better vaporisation enables you to use less fuel. Your vsr problem could have been your opportunity to get the head damage and bandaid money back in fuel saved.</strong>

    Originally posted by Ray Bell:
    <strong>
    but raises the question: How would this be?</strong>

    It helps if i know exactly which bit you are unclear about. Since there is a large amount of detail in explaination.

    I will presume you mean the fuel saving and work toward the others. Fuel saving starts with understanding very clearly what is lean and what rich is when mentioning AFR. I will define it: Lean is when there is insuffient fuel vapor to support combustion. Rich is when there is more fuel vapor than is required for combustion.

    Most people think of liquid fuel to air as rich or lean.

    Vapor is the only portion that burns,and does so in sufficent time to provide power. Any remaining liquid fuel vaporises to late to provide power to the engine.

    So if the appropriate amount of fuel is vaporised properly. Then the liquid remainder can be removed. Since liquid is unnessary and will simply cause the vehical to run to much fuel. If you spilt dodecane into hexane you end up with twice as much material by volume. With a greater overall btu value. So by doing this you have effectively doubled your fuel quantity.

    The HC,s you read in the exhaust are the unburnt liquid fuel portion. Because you have less HCs going into the engine the quantity of availble oxygen is greater. The amount of heat has changed because there simply is not enough energy unused.

    With lower temps there will be less NOX formation. The reason that you have less hydrocarbons by weight is because the chains are shorter however the PPM count will be high. But the overall HC emissions are less.

    The reason you dont loose power? Is because the vapor ratio, is the only ratio that has ever been burning to power your car so because it has not changed nor will the cars power output.

    <small>[ 16 May 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Don't worry, we'll get there eventually...

    The bit I don't understand was the bit where you said:

    Your vsr problem could have been your opportunity to get the head damage and bandaid money back in fuel saved.
    First problem is that it's not grammatically structured. Such structures tend to make things clear and decipherable.

    So maybe a bit of a reword would make it clearer?

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Ok? by increasing your mpg. You would pay less per mile traveled. The money you saved from the fuel you were spared using. Would over time, equal the cost of the damage to your engine.

    Hope that is a little clearer.

    Ray, the bit about grammaticly incorrect I am not sure how to resolve? Any suggestions?

    Al

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