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Thread: Redline

  1. #1
    Gus
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    Redline

    I've been wondering about exactly what the risks of redlining are. Is it most likely you will bend valves, excessive piston/bore wear, risk oil film failure, break a conrod... what else?

    I'd heard that to find redline, carmakers usually find the spot where the car makes most power, then add a few hundred rpm.

    I ask specifically because I'm thinking seriously about trying to import a Renault 21 TXI 12-valve head for my 505 STI (as suggested by Dave Mcbean.)
    I bought a late-model 21 workshop manual on eBay yesterday, so I can have a good look at it all before I get around to importing the heavy stuff.

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    The problem? The R21TXI produces max power at 6000rpm, and does very little below 4000rpm. Peugeot set the redline for the 505 at 5750rpm, and the manual says never to spend more than a second above that mark, or any time at all above 6500.

    The 505 motor is a stroked (2.2) version of the 2.0 renault engine, so the piston speeds should be 10% higher, right? The block is also less rigid.

    What are the risks if I start revving the hybrid 2.2l TXI to 6500 on a regular basis? Conrod through the block? eek! (Usual failure of the stroked Volvo 2.3l turbo motors.) Excessive piston wear?

    If I get custom pistons (probably will need them anyhow), will that lower the risk?

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    <span>To watever you buy, tell your engine builder that you want <span class=ResizableText0>everything</span>
    to be <span class=ResizableText0>cracktested,</span> smoothed and whole engine <span class=ResizableText0>BALANCED!!</span> specially the bottom end. Think bout better <span class=ResizableText0>lubbing/oiling</span> <span class=ResizableText0>properties</span> too. This isn't <span class=ResizableText0>restricted</span> to pug engines but just something all good builders do.
    Dont skimp on good Rings for those pistons, failure here is common on hi-revers.
    Good luck, xqisid ps. put up "in <span class=ResizableText0>progress"</span> pictures if you can too!! most of us here will <span class=ResizableText0>appreciate</span> em.</span>

    <small>[ 22 December 2002, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: xqisid ]</small>
    ... ptui!

  3. #3
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Gus,

    4 cylinder engines have problems with balance when they are large (say over 2 litres) thus Porsche 944, Magna, etc have balance shafts.

    The main problem with larger 4 cylinder engines when revved hard is that they shake themselves to pieces (cracked crankshafts, cracked pistons, etc). This problem will be accentuated by the high piston speeds and adverse conrod angularity of a long stroke engine. This may be why they never fitted the 12V head to the 2.2

    I wouldn't depair, though, because on you're own motor you can afford to do things that the factory couldn't, to offset these disadvantages (like fitting lighter stronger pistons and having the engine very well balanced). Crack testing the crankshaft would be a must.

    I've been told that one type of Toyota piston will fit the 2.2, and ACL make them in a stronger and lighter material than original (I think they're worth about $220 a set).

    Dave
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  4. #4
    Gus
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    Hmm.

    Might make it worth dropping 200cm^3 and running with a 2L from a R21/25/Fuego (I could even import a whole engine if I could find one.)

    Lowers the chances that I can pass the beastie off as "stock", though (no more matching Engine & VIN numbers). If the TXI was ever sold in Oz the swap would be a no-brainer, but with it being import-only I'd need an emissions test. I guess I could just say "Renault 21 Injected engine" and it'd be true. .

    How much does everyone think all this balancing would cost? (being a student, I'm a big fan of DIY - if I can get together a few grand for the head/motor and know that will be the only really big cost apart from my own labour, then I'm keen!)

  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    not sure what balancing will cost but i can recomend daniel engineering in wollongong for the job
    i have seen them do a lot of balancing work and all has been excellent every time
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  6. #6
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Westend Performance in Campbelltown are pretty cheap for 4 cylinder work(because it's a "poor" housing commission area with lots of V8's). I think they charge about $200 for a bottom end balance on a 4 cylinder. I'm not sure just how good a job they do.

    Dave
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
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  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Gus:


    Lowers the chances that I can pass the beastie off as "stock", though (no more matching Engine & VIN numbers).
    So long as you don't sell your "old" motor to somebody, they're extremely unlikely to catch you out if you just restamp the "new" motor with the engine number of the "old" one. I know somebody who has been doing this on his own cars for years. They only catch you if they have to do a forensic test on your block (e.g. if another engine comes up on their computer system with the same engine number, like for example your "old" engine if you've sold it to somebody).

    Dave

    <small>[ 23 December 2002, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  8. #8
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    Gus you can balance the non-rotating stuff (eg pistons) using a good set of electronic scales, and removing material from the heavier parts to get them down to the weight of the lightest, like from inside the skirt of the pistons. I once did this using my Mum & Dad's fish 'n' chip shop scales, which could read to three decimals.

    Stuey (what do you mean 'my fish is oily', madam?)


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  9. #9
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Stuey:
    Gus you can balance the non-rotating stuff (eg pistons) using a good set of electronic scales, and removing material from the heavier parts to get them down to the weight of the lightest, like from inside the skirt of the pistons.
    Apparently some types of engraving tools are very good for this because you can remove extremely small amounts of metal at a time.
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  10. #10
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    One thing to be careful of if you restamp an engine number is that if you take it "over the pits" for any reason (like if it has been unregistered for some time or if you move to another state) in some places they may want to do a forensic test on the engine number. I haven't heard of this happening, but inspection regimes change all the time.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  11. #11
    bob
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    G'day

    Sure way to draw attention to yourself is to botch up a restamped engine number - particularly these days when they have all these roadside checks. Even in the old days when a block was machined and the number went to god it was recomended that you leave it that way as the number was still visible with the right test.

    If the stock R2.0L is a "bolt in" why not just change over and give them the "new" number ? So what if it has to be checked, in my experience they are more interested in the legality of the source, ie not knicked, than whether or not it came from EXACTLY the same make and model. Even rego authorities are aware of "world" parts that are swapped around between different brands. Bits that "don't fit" usually only require an engineer's certificate to get an OK.

    Bob

  12. #12
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    bob:
    So what if it has to be checked
    How much experience have you had with the NSW RTA?

    In my experience, honesty gets you into more trouble than dishonesty, with the RTA. I know others who've come to the same conclusion.

    Dave

    <small>[ 24 December 2002, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  13. #13
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    bob:

    Sure way to draw attention to yourself is to botch up a restamped engine number - particularly these days when they have all these roadside checks.
    Whatever you do, don't botch it!

    The RTA in NSW often give up looking for the engine number on cars like the 505STI, which have hoses going everywhere.

    One ploy is to remove the engine number completely, just so they can't find it. I'd only try this to guard against roadside checks (it doesn't work for pit checks).

    The tactics I've suggested obviously aren't a good move if your car is a well known thief magnet (Holden, Ford, Subaru, Porsche, etc), but on unwanted brands (like Pugs) you can get away with it.

    Dave

    <small>[ 24 December 2002, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  14. #14
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    it took myself and 2 of a dealers mechanics over 2 hours once trying to find the engine number of a 604 V6 block
    even phoning the RTA and asking them what it said in their books didn't help
    i never thought it would be so hard and now i know why 604's have a sticker on the top of the engine with the number printed on it (well they used to unless they have finally fallen off) but if you are looking for it it is right at the rear of the block underneath the engine on the drivers side near the bellhousing bolt on a flat about 40X10mm
    the area is much smaller than what most engines have their numbers stamped on and is a right pain in the rear if you don't know where to look
    very handy though as dave says if you want to get a car through RTA though
    they end up giving up
    when i went to the RTA to get a car through they asked me where the number was and i said way underneath "would you like me to climb under and read it out for you ?" yeah good idea i'm not going under there i'll get dirty (and they didn't have a pit) and i still had the number etched into my memory so i didn't even get under far enough to read it
    i could have told him anything
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  15. #15
    bob
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    G'day

    Being a mexican I only had to deal with similar types.

    I'm sorry that all you poor people north of the border have all of these problems.

    Bob

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    LOL @ bob, ahh mmmmm.
    "now play nice boys." mother RTA
    x

    ps, tisk,
    ... ptui!

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