Suspension Mods on 504
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Suspension Mods on 504

    What has been done in terms of mods to the suspension to 504? What springs have been used. How far have you lowered them. can the roll centre be adjusted?

    I have 604 lower control arms discs pads and rear hubs. I was thinking of fitting 604 springs. what are the best sway bar sizes? Pug13bt How are the king springs on yours?

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    What has been done in terms of mods to the suspension to 504? What springs have been used. How far have you lowered them. can the roll centre be adjusted?

    I have 604 lower control arms discs pads and rear hubs. I was thinking of fitting 604 springs. what are the best sway bar sizes? Pug13bt How are the king springs on yours?
    604 springs will raise a 504 considerably
    604 lower arms will increase neg camber
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! MR604's Avatar
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    Alspug504
    I got lowered springs from Aurora springs in South Australia. The springs are lowered an inch and a half.
    I think the cost was about $340 delivereed and they took about 3 weeks.
    If you want their contact details i'll post them when i get home. deal

    Pugrambo
    Is there anything else that needs to changed or modified to fit the 604 low/control arms? How easy are they to come by?

    cheers!
    A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention in human history, with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. - Mitch Radcliffe

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    nothing needs to be changed to fit the 604 lower arms on your car 2pugs
    from what i have been told 505 lower arms are the same as 604 ones
    i think graham was talking about this somewhere on here but as one that has never played with 505's i am not sure so i believe someone when they say something
    i have only played 504/604 and many others but that is getting off topic
    so what i am saying is that if 505 and 604 lower arms are the same then there should be plenty around
    just make sure they are straight !!!!!!!!!!!
    they are pretty easy to bend believe me if you hit something like a gutter
    make sure the bushes are in good condition as well but that's something anyone would check
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Yeah It is only made difficult by the way the lower control arm is attached to the strut. other than that it is not to hard.

    But I reckon you better off with 505 lower control arms as the silent block bushes are bigger and dont chop out as quick.

    I found that my 604 calipers did not clear the guard behind the discs. And your best to swap sway bar if you can. Cause the 504 one are to short. One other thing is the tye rod end arm on the off side is solid! So you might want to grab a 604 power steer arm I think of the opposite side (Due to the fact that it a rod end that couples to the yoke on the normal 504 rack. This gives you full adjustment when doing your allignment! The only other thing is the hose couplings for the brakes varies model to model

    2 pugs So how low did you go mate?
    Thanks mate I pass on your offer til I ve got more info!

    Surely pugrambo, could the ride height not be fixed with the angle grinder? By cutting off a coil the stiffness would also increse. That to would also increase negative camber.

    <small>[ 24 April 2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    One other thing that may be possible is that eccentric bushes be fitted to the 505 lower control arm, allowing for roll centre adjustment!

    <small>[ 24 April 2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

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    Yes, the 505 and 604 arms are the same length, I am also pretty sure that they have the same larger inner bushes.
    You will need to fit the 505/604 triangulation arms to obtain the correct castor angle and also to avoid excess wear on the bushes.

    Graham Wallis

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! MR604's Avatar
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    Alspug504
    I lowered the car one and half inches. The mob that did the springs were
    Industrial Engineers & Springmakers
    Hindmarsh
    SA
    (08) 83462276
    By cutting coils You'll only drop the height, the stiffness comes from the coil dia amount of winds.

    Pugrambo & Graham
    Well think i should be able to find a 505 somewhere to rob. Is there any difference between S1 & S2

    cheers!
    A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention in human history, with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. - Mitch Radcliffe

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    actually 2pugs by cutting coils off you do increase stiffness as a coil spring technically is only a lever and the shorter the lever the harder it becomes to move an object
    the effect isn't as great as getting heavier springs but yes the do become a bit stiffer
    as far as i know you do not need to change the sway bar as i am pretty sure in one of my 504's i left the standard on in place
    also for every 1.5-1.75" you lower a 504 at the front you get 1 deg neg camber but mind you i am only working on memory here so someone that has lowered a 504 recently may be able to clarify this info
    rears are a little different and again from memory it was 1" per 1 deg neg camber
    2pugs what camber has your car got now ?
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  10. #10
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    Yeah It is only made difficult by the way the lower control arm is attached to the strut. other than that it is not to hard.

    But I reckon you better off with 505 lower control arms as the silent block bushes are bigger and dont chop out as quick.

    I found that my 604 calipers did not clear the guard behind the discs. And your best to swap sway bar if you can. Cause the 504 one are to short. One other thing is the tye rod end arm on the off side is solid! So you might want to grab a 604 power steer arm I think of the opposite side (Due to the fact that it a rod end that couples to the yoke on the normal 504 rack. This gives you full adjustment when doing your allignment! The only other thing is the hose couplings for the brakes varies model to model

    2 pugs So how low did you go mate?
    Thanks mate I pass on your offer til I ve got more info!

    Surely pugrambo, could the ride height not be fixed with the angle grinder? By cutting off a coil the stiffness would also increse. That to would also increase negative camber.
    what year model is your 504 ?
    sounds like you have a pre 75 model
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  11. #11
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    The control arms must be from a pre 1984 car. The later ones have a different ball joint system.

    Graham Wallis

  12. #12
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    what are the best sway bar sizes?
    I've found the 27mm front bar from a 505 STI/GTI and the 19mm rear bar from a 604 work quite nicely. K-mac also make front and rear bars in these sizes or larger if you want. K-mac also make some solid front mounts for the swaybar which can be adapted to a 504 with a bit of work and add to the stiffness. I had these on my 504. Peujohn has also fitted some to his 504, but for some reason he had a bit more trouble fitting them than I did.

    505 STI/GTI front swaybar bushes are also a stiffer grade of plastic than than fitted to other 505s (greeny/creamy plastic rather than reddy brown) and alot stiffer than the black rubber ones on 504s.

    The stock 504 bars are 26mm front, 18mm rear.

    The 604 front bar is "only" 25mm.

    I used 505 GTI springs on my 504 (86lbs/in front, 250lbs/in rear), which are the same spring rates as used on 504 factory rally cars. The front ride height was still stock with the GTI springs (the back would have been lower if I hadn't fitted rubber spacers).

    Dave
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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Ralph's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    What's a set of bushes for the entire front end of a 7/77 504 worth? Mine's starting to get the creaks in it especially backing out of the driveway early in the morning with full right lock. Is it worth looking at Nolathane types? What's involved in replacing them? And finally where's the best place to get ém?

    Cheers,

    Ralph.
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    am also pretty sure that they have the same larger inner bushes.

    Graham I have 604 arms that is why I suggest 505 ones.

    What year model is your 504 ?
    sounds like you have a pre 75 model

    You are right pugrambo 73!

    I've found the 27mm front bar from a 505 STI/GTI and the 19mm rear bar from a 604 work quite nicely.

    So Dave would the additional stiffness in the chopped 604 spring offset roll bar size? Or is it important so as to allow the car to sqwat in brake and acceleration.

    Do you know if there is a differents in pound settings between 505GTI and 604 springs? The 604 weighes more than the 504. I would be suprised if the springs were not dabb stiffer?

    Are GTI STI bars hard to come by? Are your settings for the road?

    Ralph I have tried to get Nolethane with no success!

    Al

  15. #15
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    if you are running the '73 504 you are going to have to change over brake lines to the metric double flared type to run 604 calipers

    i doubt 604 springs would be as stiff as GTi ones
    604's are a fairly softly sprung car and the 604 springs are only heavier then say a 504 due to carrying an auto box but also the 604 spring unsprung is noticeably taller than a 504 one

    if anyone has a 504 and a 604 front spring lying around you will notice the difference straight away
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! MR604's Avatar
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    pugrambo:
    also for every 1.5-1.75" you lower a 504 at the front you get 1 deg neg camber but mind you i am only working on memory here so someone that has lowered a 504 recently may be able to clarify this info
    rears are a little different and again from memory it was 1" per 1 deg neg camber
    2pugs what camber has your car got now ?
    I've got no idea what it is.
    Is there a way of checking it at home or would i need to go to the local tyre place? Going by those measurements i should have slight negative camber then?

    cheers!
    A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention in human history, with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. - Mitch Radcliffe

  17. #17
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    your local tyre/suspension place should be able to tell you what it is running now
    i'd be guessing at about 1 deg neg camber maybe a little more that you are running on the front which you may be able to slightly notice if you stand at the front and look hard at it
    if you put the different lower arms in you will gain a little more but just watch your tyre wear
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  18. #18
    Gus
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    Fellow Frogger! Gus's Avatar
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    Dave - I find it strange your car didn't ride lower with the GTi springs, because there's a definite difference in height between GTI and STI (I could change the oil in my STI without jacking the car at all, I need to raise it a few inches under GTI springs/struts.)

    Is this because of the different struts?

    PS I have a 505 GTI front sway bar in my garage going to waste...

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Hmmm sounds like this whole 604 504 505gti spring question may require a trip to the wreckers with some verniers so as to know the detail ie how many coils thickness diametre height both traped and free! Then do some maths!

    brake lines to the metric double flared type to run 604 calipers.

    that has all been done on my car! All I have left to do is springs and sway bars.

    <small>[ 27 April 2003, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  20. #20
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    604 springs in a standard 504 will raise the front end of the 504 by at least 2-3" and give you positive camber big time
    what you should do if you have a pair of springs is to put them in and run the car for a week look at it and think what you want to do then pull them out and take them to a spring maker and ask them to make what you want using your springs as a template
    ie how much lower you want them
    how much stiffer you want them

    they know what to do it's their job
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! boodek's Avatar
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    Being ignored again, are you Ralph?
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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    If the ride height is greater then the springs are stiffer. So if I chopped em they would be stiffer still! anyway might require some expermentation. My bought a spring kit that was 15% stronger and reckons I would not wanna get much more. However as the pug rolls like a boat!! I figure 2 to 3% variation may be of no effect??

    Ralph the bush kit for the pug is cheap as and the fitting of the bushes is easy the only one that is a pain is the silent block bush on the body mount end of he lower control arm.

    <small>[ 27 April 2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  23. #23
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    "If the ride height is greater then the springs are stiffer."
    Not if they are longer! Which they are.
    604 springs are useless for anything except 604s in my opinion.

    Dave, it is only the early works springs which are the same as 505 GTI. The later ones (asked for and tested by Timo Makinen by the way) are considerably stiffer, I had a set in the front of the V6 rally car.

    Graham Wallis

  24. #24
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Alspug

    take it from someone who has been there done that
    604 springs are not stiffer and they raise the front of a 504

    try it you'll see
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Thanks I will go the 505 ones then.

    Al

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