Re 504 xn1 attn Dave Mc bean
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Re 504 xn1 attn Dave Mc bean

    I have a 504 fitted with XN1 2L and a three branch manifold with solex 32/35. Can the alternator be moved top to bottom mount on these simply? Is this the engine that can be converted to 4 port inlet design? Are the inlet ports on these siamesed or do they share a common manifold? I have checked your web site dave and I wish to clarify this?

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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The usual engine for the 4-port arrangement is the XN2 (TI) head. The 'square port' head isn't bad, but even it (released about 1979/80) isn't really capable of being altered to suit.

    With a lot of engineering, the 1800/404 head could be...

    As for the alternator, that's a breeze if you can make a bracket or adaptor to suit.

  3. #3
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    AlsPug504:
    I have a 504 fitted with XN1 2L and a three branch manifold with solex 32/35. Can the alternator be moved top to bottom mount on these simply? Is this the engine that can be converted to 4 port inlet design? Are the inlet ports on these siamesed or do they share a common manifold? I have checked your web site dave and I wish to clarify this?
    Yeah, this head can be converted to a four port design, by a couple of different methods:

    -mill the side of the head (there is one big plenum chamber in the side), taking care not to mill through where the inlet pushrods go. Then fill the side of the head with either weld, or plastic metal, and machine or grind out four separate ports.

    -alternatively you can just remove the welsh plugs, and open up 2 of the other holes, and make an inlet manifold which passes through the holes and butts up against the ports inside. You could even put some thick alloy tube in there and weld it in. Then match it up to the ports by grinding.

    It is alot of work, but with these mods you can get more appropriately sized ports (34-36mm) than with the XN2 TI head which has ports which are too big to tune a side draught carb set-up, properly. It was quite common to do these 4 port conversions to older Pugs (203s, 403s, 404s). I haven't actually seen anyone do it to the 504 head, but as the layout is the same, doing the conversion should be the same (the 404 head is the same basic casting except where the 3 branch manifold bolts on).

    Also, no one ever gets these things to run right on the road with carbs any bigger than 40 or 42mm, and venturis any much bigger than 32mm. The trick to tuning side draught carbs for the road seems to be to keep the venturis small, which is something which most people choose to ignore, and the poor old dyno tuner is left with the impossible task of tuning carbs which are miss-matched to the engine.

    The alternator will fit on the bottom side, if you muck around with spacers (I've never tried, but know people who have).

    Dave

    <small>[ 08 December 2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Thanks Dave! Your site is really good! Thanks Ray.

    I was thinking of making a plate that is the welsh plug to welsh plug or a bit more in length that accounts for the step between the inlet manifold and the welsh plug holes and welding in the aluminum tube as nessary to meet up with the port face which I would machine flat then fit seals to the ends; or just leave as a metal to metal seal bolt on and machine the nessary port and its extension were the three branch use to be.
    Know of any dramas? question

    Dont know if you had considered this: You can buy JE 2000 camira injectors sensors and wiring looms computer for about 300 bucks (I am sure I could bargan it down.) The JE computer can be easily reprogramed by a variety of places. Could bung this on instead of side draft carbs and probably be about the same price??? Leave room for further upgrade? What do you reckon?

    tongue tongue

    <small>[ 08 December 2002, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    should be fairly easy to do so long as you can get the ECU programmed right
    nothing to really stop you from trying
    electronic injection systems aren't that complicated once you have the set out in front of you
    are you going to modify the camira inlet manifold to suit as well ?
    now i know why you want to move the alternator from up the top to underneath where it can catch any oil leaks and water off the road
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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Of course! It was also so I could have fuel and other contaminants dripping into the alternator with the hope of an engine fire!! Busted damn it!!

  7. #7
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    AlsPug504:
    Thanks Dave! Your site is really good! Thanks Ray.

    I was thinking of making a plate that is the welsh plug to welsh plug or a bit more in length that accounts for the step between the inlet manifold and the welsh plug holes and welding in the aluminum tube as nessary to meet up with the port face which I would machine flat then fit seals to the ends; or just leave as a metal to metal seal bolt on and machine the nessary port and its extension were the three branch use to be.
    Know of any dramas? question

    Dont know if you had considered this: You can buy JE 2000 camira injectors sensors and wiring looms computer for about 300 bucks (I am sure I could bargan it down.) The JE computer can be easily reprogramed by a variety of places. Could bung this on instead of side draft carbs and probably be about the same price??? Leave room for further upgrade? What do you reckon?

    tongue tongue
    Sounds like you've got some good ideas.

    As far as dramas go, there always seems to be something that comes up with these kinds of projects, which makes you rethink things a little, but I can't think of any real dramas off hand. You will need a distributor extension, but they're no big deal.

    If you are using port injection, then you can go a little bigger in the ports if you feel like it. You can also make nice long inlet runners without worrying about fuel drop out, which is a great advantage over side draught carbs.

    Dave

    <small>[ 08 December 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    You will need a distributor extension, but they're no big deal.

    If you are using port injection, then you can go a little bigger in the ports if you feel like it.

    Excellent!! I might piss the dizzy off. At jaycar they sell both high energy ignition and programable timing I not sure but I think it allows for four coils and uses a hall effect sensor (Jaycar) for spark timing I think all that is about 160 bucks. Not sure but probably better than a dizzy extension.

    I am in the process of making a flow bench so the additional port room may help.

    Thanks Al

    <small>[ 08 December 2002, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  9. #9
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    Although I said you could go bigger in the ports, the thing is that there's not alot of point going bigger in the ports unless you fit larger valves (the factory rally cars used 44.5mm inlet valves).

    Dave

    <small>[ 08 December 2002, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Yeah I was not really that concerned about increasing size. But to make sure the flow is laminer throughout the port and does not flow unevenly through the valve, and that boundry layer air separation is kept to a minimum in as broader number of airspeeds and pressures as possible. Also the injector sprays the fuel so it remains in suspension.

    So the additional metal I only plan to remove in as little quantities as possibly and in the most effective spots. I also intend to adress swirl into the cylinder.

    Thank again Al

  11. #11
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    Howdy Al,

    Jaycar no longer do the breakerless ignition kit, and no longer stock the Siemens hall effect sensor that was used in their kit. They do still have the transistorised ignition kit that doesn't replace the points. I've just looked into this, and the hall effect sensor is in fact really hard to get. What you'd need to do is get one from a wrecker out of another dizzy that used them in an OEM application. Also, in their original kit, it relied on you being able to get the rotor assembly from a similar Bosch hall effect distributor, though, of course, you could cobble one up yourself. I've got the original Silicon Chip article from when the kit was current.

    Cheers

    Stuey


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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Cheers stuey I have to sus out other options

    Al

  13. #13
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    Regarding ports 2 and 3 on the early XN1/XNA cylinder head. The 2 holes on the outside do not line up exactly with the ports inside, so you may have to gind them out a little (or a lot) towards the middle to insert pipes which line up with the ports. Just be careful not to break through to the pushrod holes. The pushrod holes pass through at an angle, so make sure you're aware where they are, both top and bottom.

    Dave

    <small>[ 11 December 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Stuey I got the impresion you were looking for the jaycar kit yourself. I Did some ringing around and found from a mate that Jaycar in springvale Vic will give you the plans to the cdi or dizzy replacement kit! You would probably have to find another sensor but at least that way you get the kit.

    Jaycar dont charge and more than likely they can fax it to you. With the sensor you might also wanna try RC components i am fairly sure I called a while back in regards to the hall effect sensor..

    Hope that helps your plans.

    Thanks Dave for your help what I will do Is measure up the head and knock out a to scale drawing that will give me some idea as to far the pushrods are. So I can radius the area around them.

    Cheers Al

    <small>[ 09 December 2002, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,
    In relation to the ignition questions!!

    Have you checked out <a href="http://www.pertronix.com" target="_blank">www.pertronix.com</a> ??

    This is an American Company who make a small one piece electronic ignition module that will fit into an original points dizzy. The main advatage I can see is easy installation and no extra parts, and no more points.
    O haven't tried one as yet, but I found out they makee one to suit the Renault Ducillier Dizzy, and the Bosch tpe dist' Renault used. Nearly all of the Ducillier dist's I have seen are relativly the same size and I am sure the older 504 models used one too. The Pertronix parts are available in Australia through Classic and Vintage Bulbs.
    <a href="http://www.classicandvintagebulbs.com" target="_blank">www.classicandvintagebulbs.com</a> The website doesnt mention Pertronix but I requested a catalogue and it's in there.

    Hope this helps...Chris
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  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Thanks chris
    Al

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