Other carbs on 504?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Other carbs on 504?

    What other carbs have people tried on the 504 xn1 2.0 litre in replacement of the solex 32-35 sei?

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    Did you experiance any power increase?

    What cfm did the carb flow? How was the idle quality?

    Dave, what are your thoughts?

    any odd carbs you have fitted?

    Al

  2. #2
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    Al,

    Have a look at my posts in the thread here: <a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000263" target="_blank">http://www.aussiefrogs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000263</a>

    About half way down the page I describe the setup in our 504. It's got plenty of power. Paul Vassallo (AP Automotive) our mechanic serviced the 504 for the first time recently and was told us how well it went compared to others he'd driven.

    Idle is perfect - hardly a shake, providing she's in tune of course!
    Hope that helps,
    Derek.

  3. #3
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I've used plenty of 32/36 DGV Webers on various 504 engines. They usually go a little bit better than stock and are alot cleaner and simpler, and are often alot more tractable than with the Solex. Economy is approx the same. The full bore acceleration improvement varies from car to car, Some it doesn't make much difference, others it makes quite a bit. A good dyno tune is probably the way to go.

    On my friends auto 504 we fitted a Holley 180 (copy of Weber 32/36 DFV) and it made quite an improvement to acceleration.

    I have also made a manifold for my single 40 DCOE to fit a square port 504 head, but haven't had a chance to try it yet (hopefully I will very soon).

    You can also get an adaptor to fit a 350 Holley 2 barrel carb, but you need to plug the power valve restriction orifice and drill it to about 0.5mm, in order to calibrate the carby properly. The 350 is not too big for a 2 litre (despite what people say), it has 38mm throats and 30mm venturis and is actually an ideal size for a 2 litre engine, you just have to do the restriction orifice mod. I got this info from David Vizards excellent book on hotting up 2 litre SOHC Ford engines.

    Dave

    <small>[ 14 April 2003, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    ?

    What cfm did the carb flow? How was the idle quality?
    Tests done by David Vizard show that the Weber 32/36 carbs flow about 290cfm (at a pressure of 3" of Mercury). The idle quality is normal.

    The 350 Holley flows 350 cfm at 3" of mercury (as the name implies).

    A single 40 DCOE flows 350-500cfm at 3" of mercury, depending on the venturi sizes and whether ram tubes are used. I'm going to use 30mm venturis in mine with 50mm long ram tubes in a largish K&N filter case. The small venturis (relatively) help fuel economy and driveability.

    Alot of people use 45mm webers with big venturis (above 33mm) on 2 litre engines and end up with thirsty pigs.

    Dave

    <small>[ 14 April 2003, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  5. #5
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I had better add than sometimes Solex equipped 504s can go really really well, but it's getting rarer to find such cars, since most of the Solexs are well and truely worn out in the butterfly shafts.

    One worn 78 model 504 engine I had with early model inlet manifold and Solex and about 300,000km, pulled like a train but it was rattly as hell (which turned out to be a loose keyway in the crankshaft, for the timing sprocket).

    Even so, it didn't light up the tyres anywhere near as easily as the modified square port engine I had in my 505 (modified ports, shortened valve guides, Wade 112 cam, Weber 32/36 carby, lightened flywheel).

    While that engine is off the road (due to a coolant loss problem), I've got a stockish square port engine in the car with a Weber 32/36. It now has a big bore exhaust manifold, which I didn't have on the modified engine and I have to say it goes great. Almost as well as the modified one (which was only roughly tuned, didn't get a chance to set it up properly, and had a bashed up and restrictive engine pipe). I can't wait to get the modified engine back in, in conjunction with the big bore exhaust manifold, the DCOE Weber and a good Dyno tune.

    Dave

    <small>[ 14 April 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  6. #6
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    If you do fit a Weber 32/36, you need to file out the manifold to match the throats because they are spaced more widely apart than the Solex.

    The normal 140 jets and 160 air correctors used in the Cortina/Escort Weber, work OK for the 504, but they are better with a 150 jet in the second throat and sometimes a 145 in the first, with airbleeds sometimes one size smaller (around 155), but it will vary from car to car.

    If your after the best low down tractablity (like say for an auto) and the best fuel economy, them the 32 DIR from a Renault 12 is the way to go (like on Deka's 504). These also match up to the stock 504 aircleaner.

    The Weber 32/36 DGV needs a different aircleaner, but if you're lucky enoguh to find a 32/36DFV or a Holey 180, they match up to the stock aircleaner with a tiny bit of work.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Well I figure I may as well let you know what I am up to at the moment.

    I have done fairly exhaustive study on carbs and I found a motorcraft 2150 carb which has a very good idle bleed. Variable air bleeds on the main circut and a holley type power valve with jets that I can be change over.

    The over all design is the best I have seen! The choke is 31mm and the throttle plates are about 43 so I figure it is about the right size for the pug. even if it is a little big. I am not to concerned.

    My objective at the moment is to get the fuel economy as high as I can without effecting power!

    So I am currently changing over to that. However it is taking an eternity for this mate of mine to deliver some of the stuff I need! Keep you posted!

  8. #8
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    The choke is 31mm and the throttle plates are about 43 so I figure it is about the right size for the pug.
    I think that size sounds just about right. You wouldn't want to go much bigger on a single carb set-up, but that sounds fine.

    Are you using a square port head? You'll get better results if you do.

    If you can get hold of a 505 big bore exhaust manifold (only fitted to 1980 models in Aus) it's well worth it. They seem to make quite a difference to mid range torque and fuel economy. If you can't find one of these manifolds, then try to make a longer bigger bore engine pipe to fit the stock 504 manifold.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Are you using a square port head?

    From what I can gather from your site Dave and the discusions we've had previously I dont think it is a square port! I though the square port motor were after 75 mines 73?

    If you can get hold of a 505 big bore exhaust manifold (only fitted to 1980 models in Aus) it's well worth it.

    I can get one of them no probs!

  10. #10
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Square port were sold from 1979 onwards in Australia (1975 onwards in France where these heads are actually known as "XN1 75").

    For single carb applications, these heads flow alot better than the early heads with the plenum chambers cast into the side and the three holes. If you want to modify a head for twin carbs, then you can't use a square port head (without heaps of work).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    So do you reckon the solex 32 35 is a restriction on the current engines ablity to breath? By the way the 2150 is a two barrel. It Is going on the stock manifold.

    Al

    <small>[ 21 April 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    You can also get an adaptor to fit a 350 Holley 2 barrel carb, but you need to plug the power valve restriction orifice and drill it to about 0.5mm, in order to calibrate the carby properly. The 350 is not too big for a 2 litre (despite what people say), it has 38mm throats and 30mm venturis and is actually an ideal size for a 2 litre engine, you just have to do the restriction orifice mod. I got this info from David Vizards excellent book on hotting up 2 litre SOHC Ford engines.

    I was thinking of fitting a Holley 350 to my 504, What kind of adaptor are we talking about? What kind of work is involved in plugging the power valve restriction orifice & drilling it etc...?

    cheers!

    1979 Peugeot 504 GL

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