Resetting 205 springs
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    al
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    Default Resetting 205 springs

    I'm going to get the set of springs i picked up from amcc reset soon... Just wondering how far down would be best? (I am basically just doing it cos i like the way the look lower...)

    I have heard that beyond 25mm will start to compromise handling - does anyone know if this is true? What will 25mm look like anyway?

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    And unfortunately it will be on all standard suspention for a little while - will squashing the springs pose problems with the standard setup?
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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    I'm going to get the set of springs i picked up from amcc reset soon... Just wondering how far down would be best? (I am basically just doing it cos i like the way the look lower...)

    I have heard that beyond 25mm will start to compromise handling - does anyone know if this is true? What will 25mm look like anyway?

    And unfortunately it will be on all standard suspention for a little while - will squashing the springs pose problems with the standard setup?
    what will 25mm look like??
    To evaluate just the look,get you tape mesure, load up the car with heavy stuff (bricks are good)untill you have droped 25mm and take some pics.
    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    I'm going to get the set of springs i picked up from amcc reset soon... Just wondering how far down would be best? (I am basically just doing it cos i like the way the look lower...)

    I have heard that beyond 25mm will start to compromise handling - does anyone know if this is true? What will 25mm look like anyway?

    And unfortunately it will be on all standard suspention for a little while - will squashing the springs pose problems with the standard setup?

    the norm is usually 30-40 mm.
    peter t recomended 35 mm to me.
    i have seen one car set 50mm lower and in my opinion it looked good but im sure would be a pain to drive over speedbumps without ripping out the cat.
    where are you getting the springs reset?
    -BAZZ

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    Hi Al,

    If you are going to reset the standard spring don't go too low, especially if you don't have top quality shocks. Usually when you get lowered springs you increase the spring rate to compensate for the reduced travel, so you don't hit the bumpstops. When you hit the bump stops your effective spring rate increases exponentially and you risk doing damage to your car. With standard springs you only have about 100mm of travel, so 25mm lower is 25mm travel you have lost, or 25%.

    Jarrod

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    decreasing the free length of a GTi spring 30-40mm works extremely well. You'll have no problems.

    '92 205 Mi16
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    i had an idea of going the other way. i want to raise a little and fit a nice set of 17" maybe crazy enuff go 18".
    Puggy.

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    al
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    Thanks guys - this is the info i was after. I was talking to someone about this, and they said that if you go down a fair way the wishbones end up at strange angles which f***s everything up... (this was my main concern) They also raised something about eating driveshafts quicker...?

    As for the shocks, i have no idea yet. If they are crap, they will be gone by christmas and replaced by something better... If they are decent they will stay as i prefer the feel of standard ones. (my favourite 205 by far was jason m's with standard gear in it) While this setup felt good, if i can get it lower without destroying the handling i would be very happy.

    That point about the bumpstops is interesting though... (My dads daimler has just had heaps spent repairing the rear suspention mounts which were ripped out by the car bottoming out!) Is this why lower cars generally require shortened (and firmer) shocks?

    Otherwise, if what peter says is true though, (and i don't doubt it is) 35mm would be great. This would basically eliminate the arch gap, and also make things a little firmer, yes? When you say this is fine i presume you mean on standard shockers?

    And 205PP, don't worry about raising it... Pugjet has 17s on standard height, and 20FIVE has 17s on a slightly lower car - they both look good...if a little like rollerskates!
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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    Thanks guys - this is the info i was after. I was talking to someone about this, and they said that if you go down a fair way the wishbones end up at strange angles which f***s everything up... (this was my main concern) They also raised something about eating driveshafts quicker...?

    As for the shocks, i have no idea yet. If they are crap, they will be gone by christmas and replaced by something better... If they are decent they will stay as i prefer the feel of standard ones. (my favourite 205 by far was jason m's with standard gear in it) While this setup felt good, if i can get it lower without destroying the handling i would be very happy.

    That point about the bumpstops is interesting though... (My dads daimler has just had heaps spent repairing the rear suspention mounts which were ripped out by the car bottoming out!) Is this why lower cars generally require shortened (and firmer) shocks?

    Otherwise, if what peter says is true though, (and i don't doubt it is) 35mm would be great. This would basically eliminate the arch gap, and also make things a little firmer, yes? When you say this is fine i presume you mean on standard shockers?

    And 205PP, don't worry about raising it... Pugjet has 17s on standard height, and 20FIVE has 17s on a slightly lower car - they both look good...if a little like rollerskates!

    I believe 30 mm lower with coilovers and Bilstein Group N shocks and lowering the back 25 mm will work really well and you will not have any of the above concerns. Another way to adjust the rear is having the chassis at the rear be 6 mm higher than the front. This has been widely tried and tested over the years in our neck of the woods. Don't forget to adjust your brake bias after lowering. If you want to be more precise about it, use 300 lbs/inch springs as your engine is a bit heavier, get a strut tower brace, abjust total toe-in to 0 to 1 mm, and stay away from ultra low profile tires and 16 or 17 inch wheels as the ride will be quite jiggly and the turn-in no better than with 15's even 14's. You will be paying a lot more money for tires and bending your rims every time you hit a serious pothole. This is shaping up to be a great little car, Al, I have been watching your project with interest.

    Thanos
    Last edited by Thanos; 19th November 2005 at 01:26 AM.

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    al
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    I believe 30 mm lower with coilovers and Bilstein Group N shocks and lowering the back 25 mm will work really well and you will not have any of the above concerns. Another way to adjust the rear is having the chassis at the rear be 6 mm higher than the front. This has been widely tried and tested over the years in our neck of the woods. Don't forget to adjust your brake bias after lowering. If you want to be more precise about it, use 300 lbs/inch springs as your engine is a bit heavier, get a strut tower brace, abjust total toe-in to 0 to 1 mm, and stay away from ultra low profile tires and 16 or 17 inch wheels as the ride will be quite jiggly and the turn-in no better than with 15's even 14's. You will be paying a lot more money for tires and bending your rims every time you hit a serious pothole. This is shaping up to be a great little car, Al, I have been watching your project with interest.

    Thanos
    I'm interested in the more scientific side of setting the car up, as next year i may be throwing some cash at a proper set up. (once i sell my other pug) For now though, a fairly strict budget dictates what happens. I am thinking that 15s are probably best, and if the gti 6 wheels look decent they will probably be going on.

    As for it shaping up as a "great" car...i don't know about that. Hopefully it can be a good though, as i have spent lots of time researching improvements. Once it is running properly some more of these will be implemented anyway...

    If it goes well, looks good and is generally fun i will be happy. While i do the work on it things will never be perfect, but i accept that... and i am learning. (slowly, but i am learning!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    I'm going to get the set of springs i picked up from amcc reset soon... Just wondering how far down would be best? (I am basically just doing it cos i like the way the look lower...)

    I have heard that beyond 25mm will start to compromise handling - does anyone know if this is true? What will 25mm look like anyway?

    And unfortunately it will be on all standard suspention for a little while - will squashing the springs pose problems with the standard setup?
    Wait until Monday, I may have just what you want on my project car.
    I'll measure ride the height and the spring dimensions. You and Baz can then decide whether you want them or not!
    It seems a waste to destroy standard springs as I think most cars will eventually be returned to their factory settings.
    Consider that lowering the car will restrict the range of motorsport events that the car will be suitable for.
    If you want to reduce wheel gaps look at increasing the rear track, it is fairly narrow on the series 1.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    I believe 30 mm lower with coilovers and Bilstein Group N shocks and lowering the back 25 mm will work really well and you will not have any of the above concerns. Another way to adjust the rear is having the chassis at the rear be 6 mm higher than the front. This has been widely tried and tested over the years in our neck of the woods. Don't forget to adjust your brake bias after lowering. If you want to be more precise about it, use 300 lbs/inch springs as your engine is a bit heavier, get a strut tower brace, abjust total toe-in to 0 to 1 mm, and stay away from ultra low profile tires and 16 or 17 inch wheels as the ride will be quite jiggly and the turn-in no better than with 15's even 14's. You will be paying a lot more money for tires and bending your rims every time you hit a serious pothole. This is shaping up to be a great little car, Al, I have been watching your project with interest.

    Thanos
    Gee, I just happen to have some Bilstein GpN shox for sale!
    205gti

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Wait until Monday, I may have just what you want on my project car.
    I'll measure ride the height and the spring dimensions. You and Baz can then decide whether you want them or not!
    It seems a waste to destroy standard springs as I think most cars will eventually be returned to their factory settings.
    Consider that lowering the car will restrict the range of motorsport events that the car will be suitable for.
    If you want to reduce wheel gaps look at increasing the rear track, it is fairly narrow on the series 1.
    Graham
    hey graham,i thought wed already done a deal on swapping the springs i have for the lowered ones you have????
    oh thats right,i wanted to see how much they are lowered.
    so al.if i dont want the springs off graham,you have first dibs,
    -BAZZ

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    AL , you gotta figure out if this is gonna be a hot street car or rally or standard.
    i must say i totally disagree with your statement of the 205 gti shocks being better than say koni;s or billy;s etc.
    they dont handle anywhere near as good on standard shocks.
    ive had pug shocks,pug replacement shocks and ive got koni's in my car.
    chris;s 205 has billy;s.
    i took grahams import for a drive the other day.
    it may pull better thru the revs but handles NO WHERE NEAR MINE.
    my car feels safer and tighter at high speed than any 205 ive driven[chriss;s is on par]
    the best mod ive ever done to my car is the konis;
    takes off quicker,stops quicker,corners like on rails.
    drive a few more 205's before you make a bold statement like that.
    if its just a street car a-b run around,get the oe shocks.
    if you want to do any motorsport youre gonna have to get something a bit better than the oe shocks or they will leave you in the dust-BAZZ

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    al
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    Baz, i don't think that is a huge call... I am basing that on the three cars i have driven recently (jasons, the black koni equipped UK import i got my seats from and another white one with konis - i didn't spend long enough in yours to make be able to decide much)

    I just found as a road car the really firm cars felt unsettled. In comparison, jasons was firm enough to inspire confidence and feel like a go kart, but also comfortably compliant.

    While i'm sure uprated suspention would improve lap times, (on fast tracks) it seems that the standard set up is able to hold its own on slower courses. (On sunday at DECA the standard 205 did brilliantly - also justins slightly rolly 307 felt great and was quick on the skidpan)

    As my car will spend most of its life on the road i think the standard setup will be perfectly adequate... although, with more time behind the wheel my ideas may change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    Baz, i don't think that is a huge call... I am basing that on the three cars i have driven recently (jasons, the black koni equipped UK import i got my seats from and another white one with konis - i didn't spend long enough in yours to make be able to decide much)

    I just found as a road car the really firm cars felt unsettled. In comparison, jasons was firm enough to inspire confidence and feel like a go kart, but also comfortably compliant.

    While i'm sure uprated suspention would improve lap times, (on fast tracks) it seems that the standard set up is able to hold its own on slower courses. (On sunday at DECA the standard 205 did brilliantly - also justins slightly rolly 307 felt great and was quick on the skidpan)

    As my car will spend most of its life on the road i think the standard setup will be perfectly adequate... although, with more time behind the wheel my ideas may change.
    I'd agree Al, the billys aren't a whole lot stiffer at all, they just soak hits up better, and don't overheat as quickly, therefore better on dirt. Soft=traction, hard =cornering, and it's really all a compromise. I'd actually just like to sell the billys so I can play with some DMS...50mm,fully adjustable i.e. bump/rebound/ride height. Often softer is faster on dirt...
    205gti

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    AL , you gotta figure out if this is gonna be a hot street car or rally or standard.
    i must say i totally disagree with your statement of the 205 gti shocks being better than say koni;s or billy;s etc.
    they dont handle anywhere near as good on standard shocks.
    ive had pug shocks,pug replacement shocks and ive got koni's in my car.
    chris;s 205 has billy;s.
    i took grahams import for a drive the other day.
    it may pull better thru the revs but handles NO WHERE NEAR MINE.
    my car feels safer and tighter at high speed than any 205 ive driven[chriss;s is on par]
    the best mod ive ever done to my car is the konis;
    takes off quicker,stops quicker,corners like on rails.
    drive a few more 205's before you make a bold statement like that.
    if its just a street car a-b run around,get the oe shocks.
    if you want to do any motorsport youre gonna have to get something a bit better than the oe shocks or they will leave you in the dust-BAZZ

    I thought it was the steering you didn't like, certainly nothing wrong with the standard shocks.
    Possibly the lack of grip from the Goodyear F1s on the back was spooking you. These tyres have a huge slip angle, not at all compatible with the Dunlop D1s on the front.
    When you swap front to rear it goes from oversteer to bulk understeer, these tyres are as bad as the Goodyear G800 from the 1960s
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    Baz, i don't think that is a huge call... I am basing that on the three cars i have driven recently (jasons, the black koni equipped UK import i got my seats from and another white one with konis - i didn't spend long enough in yours to make be able to decide much)

    I just found as a road car the really firm cars felt unsettled. In comparison, jasons was firm enough to inspire confidence and feel like a go kart, but also comfortably compliant.

    While i'm sure uprated suspention would improve lap times, (on fast tracks) it seems that the standard set up is able to hold its own on slower courses. (On sunday at DECA the standard 205 did brilliantly - also justins slightly rolly 307 felt great and was quick on the skidpan)

    As my car will spend most of its life on the road i think the standard setup will be perfectly adequate... although, with more time behind the wheel my ideas may change.
    Yeah fair enough,the shocks in jasons car actually came out of mine and they were the aftremarket ones.
    i actually prefer the koni;s to those shocks but its horses for courses i suppose.-BAZZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by casnell
    I'd agree Al, the billys aren't a whole lot stiffer at all, they just soak hits up better, and don't overheat as quickly, therefore better on dirt. Soft=traction, hard =cornering, and it's really all a compromise. I'd actually just like to sell the billys so I can play with some DMS...50mm,fully adjustable i.e. bump/rebound/ride height. Often softer is faster on dirt...
    Yeah but he drives on the road chris,not on dirt.
    thats the reason i prefer the stiffer konis ride as i drive on the road.
    now i can say for a fact that my car corners far better with the koni;s regardless of the setting whether soft or hard then the 2 sets of previuos shocks on the car,also starts and stops ALOT better with the koni's.
    the first set was the oe shocks which were old and bouncy
    the second set was the sachs i sold to justin and the 3rd set the koni;s
    now i know with the driving style i do i much prefer the konis.
    but i supposeits all personal-BAZZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    Yeah but he drives on the road chris,not on dirt.
    thats the reason i prefer the stiffer konis ride as i drive on the road.
    now i can say for a fact that my car corners far better with the koni;s regardless of the setting whether soft or hard then the 2 sets of previuos shocks on the car,also starts and stops ALOT better with the koni's.
    the first set was the oe shocks which were old and bouncy
    the second set was the sachs i sold to justin and the 3rd set the koni;s
    now i know with the driving style i do i much prefer the konis.
    but i supposeits all personal-BAZZ
    My 5 year old Series 1 GTi that I had in 1992 had bouncy front suspension but the present 1988 1.9 is good even though its 17 years old!
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    I thought it was the steering you didn't like, certainly nothing wrong with the standard shocks.
    Possibly the lack of grip from the Goodyear F1s on the back was spooking you. These tyres have a huge slip angle, not at all compatible with the Dunlop D1s on the front.
    When you swap front to rear it goes from oversteer to bulk understeer, these tyres are as bad as the Goodyear G800 from the 1960s
    Graham
    the steering was most of it.
    i was very impressed with the pulling power thru the whole rev range but as you commented yourself graham,my car felt better at speed.
    probably cause all the front end has been recoed and the brace helps to stay dead straight.
    i actually like the non-power steering in these cars or should i say its what im used to.
    and yes the lack of rear grip did spook me a bit.
    i think ill say no to buying those tyres by the way http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/ima...ons/icon10.gif.
    my pirrelis have about 40% treadleft and they grip way better and they are on the way out.
    but as i said previously its all personal .
    what feels good to one driver does not necesarrily feel good to another.
    and its very hard to tell a car for me by just driving round the block a bit.
    im used to my setup and the differences are mostly non consequential anyways.http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/ima...ons/icon11.gif
    -BAZZ
    BAZGTI
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    al
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    Anyway, back on topic... I might get my springs reset this week and fitted to see how they look. If peter says 30-35mm will be ok i might start here, and if it is no good i still have the ones in it presently to try again with.

    And back on the firmer/softer debate... the main reason i don't want to go too firm is because every rock hard pug i have driven (205s and 405s) have seemed to understeer on remotely rough surfaces. (Although, i guess this may be my driving style. (or lack thereof...)) In the softer cars they seemed to bounce and plough through the corners less, which is important to me in what will be my daily car.

    For me the best handling car i have driven is my mums BM, which i believe has the same suspention as the M3. This car is bloody firm, (it bangs and crashes lots) but it seems far less skittish than the pugs with hard shocks... I have no idea why this is - perhaps the extra weight it carries, or the fact it is a RWD?
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    [QUOTE=al]...the main reason i don't want to go too firm is because every rock hard pug i have driven (205s and 405s) have seemed to understeer on remotely rough surfaces. (Although, i guess this may be my driving style. (or lack thereof...))
    QUOTE]

    This a correct, Al, the stiffer end skids first, make the front too stiff and you got an understeering pig. I cannot recommend the Group N's highly enough even though they are softer as you get no understeer with them and nearly no roll with the right springs. Nearly everyone in 106 group N racing here uses them for bitumen, not just dirt. My opinion is that if you lower the car you should also make it stiffer, Jarrods is spot-on with his comments, reach the end of the compression and it will be like hitting a wall. And like I said earlier, keep the toe-in at 1mm or less or else you will understeer a LOT. You can also dial in the amount of oversteer you want by tuning the rear height, easy enough to to once you have the front all sorted out. As for the M3, the turn-in / track out behavior has a lot to do with the ratio of front to rear track width, and front and rear cambers among other things, surprising as it may sound RWD is secondary to the above factors. And in my opinion a properly set up 205 will corner better then an M3, especially in tighter corners or during a hill climb.

    Thanos
    Last edited by Thanos; 21st November 2005 at 06:26 AM.

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    great info ppls ty. suspension + brakes is gonna get the treatment soon.
    Puggy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Wait until Monday, I may have just what you want on my project car.
    I'll measure ride the height and the spring dimensions. You and Baz can then decide whether you want them or not!
    It seems a waste to destroy standard springs as I think most cars will eventually be returned to their factory settings.
    Consider that lowering the car will restrict the range of motorsport events that the car will be suitable for.
    If you want to reduce wheel gaps look at increasing the rear track, it is fairly narrow on the series 1.
    Graham
    OK, these springs appear to be the real deal.
    They have 6 turns, one more than my Euro 1.9 but the two end turns top and bottom will contact under anything more than a moderate load leaving two turns doing the work from then on, so progressive rate. The end turns are plastic covered. 12mm wire.
    Ride height is 325mm from the edge of the guard extension to the middle of the wheel. Baz has first refusal then I'm open to offers.
    The shocks appear to be standard Peugeot.
    Al, I have a red grill but some damage, may not matter if you intend to modify it?
    Baz, the wheels are now in North Balwyn.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    And back on the firmer/softer debate... the main reason i don't want to go too firm is because every rock hard pug i have driven (205s and 405s) have seemed to understeer on remotely rough surfaces. (Although, i guess this may be my driving style. (or lack thereof...))
    Use the force Al, learn to flick and it opens up a whole new world of fun, esp with a bit of left foot braking. These cars are the best I've ever driven for exploiting that useless left foot , that's actually the left foot rest between the clutch and throttle
    205gti

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