PRV V6 questions
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! cam740's Avatar
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    Default PRV V6 questions

    Guys i'm wondering if you could help me - even though the engine concerned is for/outta a Volvo (760) you guys are really the only ones that i know of that have played with the PRV V6's in aust (there is a guy in thge US that i';m sure you jave heard about named John Lane that I'm sure a few of you knwo about!) and i am looking for a reasonaly swift comfortable econimical road car that is differnet to the norm - hence looking at the warmed up 760!

    what issues will i have - i've been inspired by the tales of TT LPG 505s i've been reading of and reckon that would make a nice edge to a 760. I believe that the engine in the car ( i havent actually seen it yet - all i know is that it has a blown head gasket) is a B28E outta an 88 760 if that helps!

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    thanks heaps for your time

    cam

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    lol so whats the question sorry?

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    If your little treasure has the odd-firing engine and has sat for any time with 'Milkshake' in the crankcase you will do well to start with removing this engine and starting with one that has no such issue.

    I am fond of the even-firing engines. Smooth running......Very big power potential if done right.

    If you are looking for affordable and easy this will not be the one for you to get inside of. The Volvo turbo-4 is easier and more affordable to work with though in my humble opinion less amusing in the end.

    John Lane

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    Fellow Frogger! cam740's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie
    lol so whats the question sorry?

    oops!

    ok my questions are:

    1 what are teh pitfalls i have to look out for??
    2.anyone have any measurements from the back of the block to the furthest forward point (which i'm assuming are the turbo's??)
    3 what internal work (if any) would i need to do - with the knowledge i will be running it on lpg?? (thank you mr octane! )

    john one of the reason's i'd lIVE to do the V6 is that it's not something done down under - people are more often gonna fit jap import engines to em than oem "worked" motors...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam740
    1 what are teh pitfalls i have to look out for??
    2.anyone have any measurements from the back of the block to the furthest forward point (which i'm assuming are the turbo's??)
    3 what internal work (if any) would i need to do - with the knowledge i will be running it on lpg?? (thank you mr octane! )

    john one of the reason's i'd lIVE to do the V6 is that it's not something done down under - people are more often gonna fit jap import engines to em than oem "worked" motors...
    1) If the engine is the usual old junk that has not been maintained you may have a corroded mess in the cooling system. Look for pitting in the coolant passages as you tear the engine down. Don't bother with the odd-firing engine. The even-firing engine is a much nicer, smoother runner.
    Also if it has not been maintained (this is likely) you will have lots of sludge and likely worn cams and rocker arms. When you do your fresh engine be sure to use the Volvo alloy rocker arms P/N 271617 with the 'E' cams. This will make it amusing as a N/A engine and works great with a turbo.

    2) I don't recall the measurements you are asking for. My car has enough room between the engine and the firewall that I fit a nice big T-04 back there.

    3) Running on LP Gas? LP gas has a LOT more octane then gasoline. I would build a three liter with forged pistons and real rods and give it flat-top pistons for about nine to one and give it forced induction with LP gas when you can. If it will stay N/A I would give it more compression. Copy the piston shape of the B-280E to the 93mm boresize of the three liter (complete with valve reliefs) and enjoy something like ten to one if not a little more.....

    I did my crazy torbocharged V-6 for similar reasons. It works real well. Certainly this is NOT the cheap/easy way to get more power although the end result is a LOT of fun.

    John Lane

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    Fellow Frogger! OddFireV6's Avatar
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    John
    I would like to see some photos of the engine and the dyno sheet and more details for your car if you have them, you can find mine on this forum if you search on my name.


    Iím not sure Iím in agreement with everything said on this thread so far, hereís my view.

    In my opinion the difference between odd and evenfire is not so great, in the oddfires favour is cheapness and availability, other than my 505 the quick V6 505s in the Melbourne club still have oddfires in them. The two most significant improvements of evenfires are the oil galleries for the camshaft lobes and the shape of the inlet port that is achievable if the head is ported and with turbocharging the port shape is less of a consideration. A turboíd oddfire is quite a pleasant and smooth engine particularly under boost conditions.

    I think that turboing a PRV V6 should be a cheap and easy process, in can be with some care. The turbo cars in the Melbourne club all run standard pistons and rods and everything else, all are decompressed to 8.2 to 8.8 to 1. These engines are reliable if you do not allow the engine to detonate, if it does the head gaskets and pistons will fail including forged pistons. I have seen standard PRV engine components last for years of motor sport let alone street driving. In terms of internals the key advice is to set up the liner height to 12 thou above the block deck, and consider using copper head gaskets.

    The octane rating of Victorian LP gas (it varies from state to state) is 110 and so a CR nine to one might be a little high here if you wanted to run above 10 pounds boost, I would suggest closer to 8 to one is preferable then you could go to 15 pounds. My car is only 8.8 to 1 because if I went any further the crowns would have been to thin.
    OddfireV6
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    Fellow Frogger! cam740's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddFireV6
    John
    I would like to see some photos of the engine and the dyno sheet and more details for your car if you have them, you can find mine on this forum if you search on my name.


    Iím not sure Iím in agreement with everything said on this thread so far, hereís my view.

    In my opinion the difference between odd and evenfire is not so great, in the oddfires favour is cheapness and availability, other than my 505 the quick V6 505s in the Melbourne club still have oddfires in them. The two most significant improvements of evenfires are the oil galleries for the camshaft lobes and the shape of the inlet port that is achievable if the head is ported and with turbocharging the port shape is less of a consideration. A turboíd oddfire is quite a pleasant and smooth engine particularly under boost conditions.

    I think that turboing a PRV V6 should be a cheap and easy process, in can be with some care. The turbo cars in the Melbourne club all run standard pistons and rods and everything else, all are decompressed to 8.2 to 8.8 to 1. These engines are reliable if you do not allow the engine to detonate, if it does the head gaskets and pistons will fail including forged pistons. I have seen standard PRV engine components last for years of motor sport let alone street driving. In terms of internals the key advice is to set up the liner height to 12 thou above the block deck, and consider using copper head gaskets.

    The octane rating of Victorian LP gas (it varies from state to state) is 110 and so a CR nine to one might be a little high here if you wanted to run above 10 pounds boost, I would suggest closer to 8 to one is preferable then you could go to 15 pounds. My car is only 8.8 to 1 because if I went any further the crowns would have been to thin.

    oddfire - how much harder was it to mount it all up as a TT rather than a single??

    love your work and what you ahve done too - thats awesome!!!

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    Fellow Frogger! OddFireV6's Avatar
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    Cam 740

    Thanks for positive comments

    The twins are a quantum leap more difficult and more expensive to set up and frankly if I had my time again I would have left the old reliable and bullet proof single TO4 in place. The twins do have less lag of course.

    Lessons I learnt:
    Rule one for turbo purchase: Never use a ceramic wheel turbo like I did, I had 3 of them disintegrate. I have upgraded to steel turbine wheels at some cost.

    Rule two for turbo Purchase: When choosing a turbo make sure itís a common and garden generic unit, they are cheaper to replace and service.
    OddfireV6
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddFireV6
    Cam 740

    Thanks for positive comments

    The twins are a quantum leap more difficult and more expensive to set up and frankly if I had my time again I would have left the old reliable and bullet proof single TO4 in place. The twins do have less lag of course.

    Lessons I learnt:
    Rule one for turbo purchase: Never use a ceramic wheel turbo like I did, I had 3 of them disintegrate. I have upgraded to steel turbine wheels at some cost.

    Rule two for turbo Purchase: When choosing a turbo make sure itís a common and garden generic unit, they are cheaper to replace and service.

    lol - tehy ceramics are like the early R32 skyline ones aint they???

    i've been reading as much as i can while working and i may be getting it confused but was it you that was saying pick em up thru John Verban and use teh R33 skyline turbos????

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddFireV6
    John
    I would like to see some photos of the engine and the dyno sheet and more details for your car if you have them, you can find mine on this forum if you search on my name.

    ----Photos of my car are here there and everywhere. Here we have a short video of it in action from back in 2000....... http://media.putfile.com/Lane1
    One of the rallyguys posted it this morning.

    Iím not sure Iím in agreement with everything said on this thread so far, hereís my view.
    ----Fair enough.

    In my opinion the difference between odd and evenfire is not so great, in the oddfires favour is cheapness and availability, other than my 505 the quick V6 505s in the Melbourne club still have oddfires in them. The two most significant improvements of evenfires are the oil galleries for the camshaft lobes and the shape of the inlet port that is achievable if the head is ported and with turbocharging the port shape is less of a consideration. A turboíd oddfire is quite a pleasant and smooth engine particularly under boost conditions.

    ----The intake ports of the 'Late' two valve even-firing engine is a HUGE improvement over the odd-firing engine. The even-firing engine has a forged steel crankshaft which IS nice to know although I have NEVER seen a broken crankshaft in one of these lumps.
    One of the things which was clear to me when I first gave the PRV six a good look back in....1980 was that port sizing and such is ideal for turbocharging. I'm sure tickled with the way my engine has responded to forced induction. Just six pounds of boost and it was breaking transmissions right and left..........
    Don't think that I'm knocking your Odd-firing engines. I have run both versions and had fun with them. I AM smitten with the nice smooth idle of the even-firing engine and it's tone at full chat.
    As for oiling....the big change is that the even-firing engine has the cast-in trough for oil to collect in after it is squirted onto the cams so that the cam lobes can dip into it on every revolution. Certainly this is good but the big thing is that they MUST have regular oil changes and synthetic oil.

    I think that turboing a PRV V6 should be a cheap and easy process, in can be with some care. The turbo cars in the Melbourne club all run standard pistons and rods and everything else, all are decompressed to 8.2 to 8.8 to 1.
    -----Cheap and easy? Hmmmmmmm.........Perhaps you Pommies have better access to good used turbos, Engine management systems and turbo manifolds and such to choose from. Certainly this is not the case for us Yanks.

    These engines are reliable if you do not allow the engine to detonate, if it does the head gaskets and pistons will fail including forged pistons. I have seen standard PRV engine components last for years of motor sport let alone street driving.
    -----I have never blown one of these things up in street or race driving when Naturally aspirated. Turbocharged it is too easy to blow up the Three liter. I did with six pounds of boost. Broke the top ring land on one of the pistons.

    In terms of internals the key advice is to set up the liner height to 12 thou above the block deck, and consider using copper head gaskets.
    -----12 thou huh? This is further then I have done and seems like good advise if it is working for you. Thanks.

    The octane rating of Victorian LP gas (it varies from state to state) is 110 and so a CR nine to one might be a little high here if you wanted to run above 10 pounds boost, I would suggest closer to 8 to one is preferable then you could go to 15 pounds. My car is only 8.8 to 1 because if I went any further the crowns would have been to thin.
    I would think that with 110 octane one could indeed go nine to one and with attention to detail run up to 15 lbs of boost.
    My engine uses an 8.6 to one compression ratio and I have long run up to 15lbs of boost running 100 octane racegas.

    My worth. Do with what you will.

    John Lane

  11. #11
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    Gys seeing its running on LPG does this mean i DONT have to worry about aftermarket engine management - or is that something else i have to worry about....

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    no.. if your seriosly thinking about throwing more air and fuel through your engine you'll want to get mixtures and fueling right.

    but then again. it depends on how your going to deliver said fuel and air.

    If your going to be running inejection, i would highly recomend a programable ECU of some variety. Just a lot safer in the long wrong, and ultimatly easier for furture upgrades in boost

    as for N/A.. its still want to have said ECU, if not just for tunning and gaining every last drop of hp out of said engine, but for peace of mind..

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    Cam 740
    Yes it was me who bought the ex Godzilla Nissan turboís, I have had three ceramic turbines fail. Its fair to say that with 20/20 hindsight that this was a very poor choice of Turbo. My friend in the red 505 has two Td04Lís off a WRX and these have been indestructible for the last two years and he paid $200 each for them.

    I donít think that I can blame John Verban for this, the turbos we in good condition when I got them he perhaps could have reinforced the notion that these units had a reputation and that ceramic turbines are not highly regarded.

    I now have high flowed Garrett GT25Rs which will last but I have lost some launch speed and gained at the top end, these are hard to get, are expensive but do have steel turbines. Itís a pleasure to tweak the rotors, they appear almost frictionless.

    You do not need engine management for gas, there are four turbo cars on the Melbourne club that use the Gas Research Australia (GRA) gas carb with a Century M6 gas converter, one uses an LG B2 converter.

    John Lane
    Thanks for detailed responses, I would still be interested in seeing a photo of your manifolding and turbo though. Its not important and I am certainly not offended but Iím a Ďskipí (as in the Australian icon Skippy the kangaroo) rather than a Pom.

    Are we talking the same gas, in Australia gas or LP gas means propane, and the liquid fuel you call gas we call petrol.

    In respect of crank strength the even fire crank would need to be superior given the stress concentration at each of the siamesed journals, intuitively the 3 throw oddfire crank looks much stronger. I agree though that I have never had crank problems with these engines. The only issue I am aware of is that the shorter floating gudgeons give more trouble than the push fit oddfire gudgeon but I assume you got round this with the forged pistons.

    And now the cost question there is an approach to do this on the cheap, old 505 $500, a bog standard 2664cc ex 604 $200 or nil sometimes, second hand V6 turbo systems, $1000 to $1500 I just sold mine for $1200, trans up to a $1000, gas system $1000. A bloke in my club runs this type of arrangement has 150 Kw at the wheels and at a sprint event came 12th out of 80 cars at Sandown raceway 3 weeks ago. To beat this chap the cars were a V12 Ferrari, a hot Mitsu GTO, a WRX STI etc. cars that cost at least 10 times more to buy or build. This is not optimal, but it can be done for those on a budget.
    OddfireV6
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddFireV6
    Cam 740
    Yes it was me who bought the ex Godzilla Nissan turboís, I have had three ceramic turbines fail. Its fair to say that with 20/20 hindsight that this was a very poor choice of Turbo. My friend in the red 505 has two Td04Lís off a WRX and these have been indestructible for the last two years and he paid $200 each for them.

    I donít think that I can blame John Verban for this, the turbos we in good condition when I got them he perhaps could have reinforced the notion that these units had a reputation and that ceramic turbines are not highly regarded.

    I now have high flowed Garrett GT25Rs which will last but I have lost some launch speed and gained at the top end, these are hard to get, are expensive but do have steel turbines. Itís a pleasure to tweak the rotors, they appear almost frictionless.

    You do not need engine management for gas, there are four turbo cars on the Melbourne club that use the Gas Research Australia (GRA) gas carb with a Century M6 gas converter, one uses an LG B2 converter.

    John Lane
    Thanks for detailed responses, I would still be interested in seeing a photo of your manifolding and turbo though. Its not important and I am certainly not offended but Iím a Ďskipí (as in the Australian icon Skippy the kangaroo) rather than a Pom.

    Are we talking the same gas, in Australia gas or LP gas means propane, and the liquid fuel you call gas we call petrol.

    In respect of crank strength the even fire crank would need to be superior given the stress concentration at each of the siamesed journals, intuitively the 3 throw oddfire crank looks much stronger. I agree though that I have never had crank problems with these engines. The only issue I am aware of is that the shorter floating gudgeons give more trouble than the push fit oddfire gudgeon but I assume you got round this with the forged pistons.

    And now the cost question there is an approach to do this on the cheap, old 505 $500, a bog standard 2664cc ex 604 $200 or nil sometimes, second hand V6 turbo systems, $1000 to $1500 I just sold mine for $1200, trans up to a $1000, gas system $1000. A bloke in my club runs this type of arrangement has 150 Kw at the wheels and at a sprint event came 12th out of 80 cars at Sandown raceway 3 weeks ago. To beat this chap the cars were a V12 Ferrari, a hot Mitsu GTO, a WRX STI etc. cars that cost at least 10 times more to buy or build. This is not optimal, but it can be done for those on a budget.
    thanks soo much for the post - on a budget is what i like to hear!!! its gotta be something that i can do for minimal bucks to a large extent - least i've got 12 months to get it done in so there is no hurry!!!

    I'd love to have a look at your car one day too OddFire - you going to the British Euro day at Dadnenong next year???

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    Quote Originally Posted by OddFireV6
    Cam 740
    John Lane
    Thanks for detailed responses, I would still be interested in seeing a photo of your manifolding and turbo though. Its not important and I am certainly not offended but Iím a Ďskipí (as in the Australian icon Skippy the kangaroo) rather than a Pom.

    -----Well then I shall see if I can scare up some photos of my junk, and Skip it shall be then.

    Are we talking the same gas, in Australia gas or LP gas means propane, and the liquid fuel you call gas we call petrol.
    ------Yup.......LP gas is Propane here too. Racegas (petrol) is well over $7.00 a gallon these days which makes LP gas attractive indeed.

    The only issue I am aware of is that the shorter floating gudgeons give more trouble than the push fit oddfire gudgeon but I assume you got round this with the forged pistons.

    ------I am using a J&E forged piston with some manner of 'Merikanski pin to match the rod and clippies that WON'T ever come undone. They are darned near impossible to fit in the first place they are soooooo tight..... Suffice to say that pistons are not continuing to be an issue since fitting forged slugs. The standard rods are not up to the task for more then 300 horses or so though. I learned this the hard way. Made lots of expensive junk that afternoon.

    And now the cost question there is an approach to do this on the cheap, old 505 $500, a bog standard 2664cc ex 604 $200 or nil sometimes, second hand V6 turbo systems, $1000 to $1500 I just sold mine for $1200, trans up to a $1000, gas system $1000. A bloke in my club runs this type of arrangement has 150 Kw at the wheels and at a sprint event came 12th out of 80 cars at Sandown raceway 3 weeks ago. To beat this chap the cars were a V12 Ferrari, a hot Mitsu GTO, a WRX STI etc. cars that cost at least 10 times more to buy or build. This is not optimal, but it can be done for those on a budget.
    Nice!! More power to all of us then.......
    Guys what manner of electronic management are you aware of for use with LP Gas? Is there a system that uses pulsed injectors at the ports? I'd be tickled to be able to run the liquid right to the fuel rail and take adnvantage of the cooling effect of the liquid turning to gas at the ports..........

    John Lane

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    Cam 740
    Yep, I and a few other turbo Peugeots usually go to the British and Euro car show.

    John Lane
    There are three possibilities for ECU control of Gas that I am aware of there is the closed loop (ie uses an oxygen sensor) ECU that operates a valve from the primary outlet of the gas converter. You set the car up lean and the ECU tops up the gas to the air fuel ratio you wish to run. This is a commercially available system and works well. The is now also a vapour injection system that emulates petrol injection but uses specific injectors that can flow the volume of vapour needed, this arrangement gives no charge cooling affect.

    Genuine Gas Fuel Injection systems apparently exist but I have no personal experience with them, the notion that the cooling affect that would occur as the fuel goes from liquid to gas phase as it leaves the injector is a great idea, to couple this with forced induction could produce big power. I think that there are issues of maintenance of fuel line pressure to keep the gas in its liquid phase up to the injector. These arrangements must still have their problems as they do not seem to be commonly available yet.
    OddfireV6
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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    what type of injection system do they use in dare i say Taxi's getting around the place, i was sure they were injected in a mannor that provided a by lovely bio-product of cooling the intake charge.

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    Default LP Gas injection.

    Well I'm certainly interested in a REAL LP Gas injection system that would use pulsed injectors at the ports.

    I would think that pressure could be regulated to a fuel rail by using a 'returnless' system that only allows X amount of pressure to be held steady to the fuel rail.
    This could be used with whatever size of injectors needed. Two injectors per hole would be easy too as my Electromotive management is able to operate them. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.........

    The cooling effect of the liquid turning to gas is pretty tempting......and right at the port too........

    Having the fuel right at the port would reduce the odors that go along with releasing the throttle under boost and having the (formerly compressed) charge exit the air filter housing with all that Gasssssss.

    Thoughts?

    John Lane

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLane
    Having the fuel right at the port would reduce the odors that go along with releasing the throttle under boost and having the (formerly compressed) charge exit the air filter housing with all that Gasssssss.
    The only way that would be possible is if you are running a suck-through (draw-through) system.

    Don't.

    The disadvantages of a suck through system are that
    • If you are using a blow-off valve, you have to either recirculate it to back into the intake of the carby, causing a very rich mixture during gear changes, or dump it to atmosphere. Unfortunately, a nicely mixed cocktail of LPG and air dumped into a hot engine bay doesn't seem like such a good idea. One dodgy spark plug lead with a little breakover and it's bye bye car.
    • You can't use an intercooler. The intercooler would be full of a nice gas/air mixture, and if the engine backfired for any reason you will have a decent sized bomb on the front of your car.


    Blow-through systems are easier to set up, safer, and generally neater too. Just remember that you need to run a pressure equalising line from between the turbo and gas carby to the diaphragm of the gas converter, to maintain constant pressure differential between the LPG as it is fed to the carby and the ambient pressure within the carby.
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    Perhaps you have missed my desire to use pulsed injectors at the port to deliver LP gas from liquid form?
    If using LP gas requires the use of the Carburettor then I won't bother with changing to LP gas.
    A big part of why I am wanting to use pulsed injectors at the intake ports is that in doing so one will in addition to taking advantage of evaporative cooling of the intake charge (fifteen or more pounds of boost well below ambient at the port with the manner of mixing that can only happen with LP gas.......Yum!!) one can use an intercooler due to the fact that as the throttle plate is slammed shut virtually NO LP gas would end up going back out through the turbo. *Ding!! We have a winner!! No stinkies (they DO put the rotting flesh stink in LP gas for you Skips, no?) and No danger of making the intercooler into an effective source of aluminum shrapnel to make passing pedestrians excitable.

    Sooooooooo any of you alls have knowledge of anyone doing an LP gas setup that runs LIQUID to a fuel rail to be delivered to the ports with pulsed injectors?

    As always guys and gals......With tongue firmly planted in cheek.

    John Lane

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    Buried omongst my efforts at humor in my last post was a question for you folks........
    Liquid LP gas to a fuel rail and pulsed injectors.........Anyone seen or heard of such an animal?

    John Lane

  22. #22
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLane
    Buried omongst my efforts at humor in my last post was a question for you folks........
    Liquid LP gas to a fuel rail and pulsed injectors.........Anyone seen or heard of such an animal?

    John Lane
    Have a read of http://www.gas-injection.com

    The Australians can do it!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

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  23. #23
    Tadpole
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    Thank you!!

    Interesting reading.

    John Lane

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