504 oil cooler
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Thread: 504 oil cooler

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Default 504 oil cooler

    ok, so maybe im behind the times........but ive embarked on a cooling saga..........

    the little old 504 is really doing it tough, driveing to and from ipswich in this recent hot weather every day, sooooooooo....

    off the the wreckers, swapped my hard earned ten bucks for an oil cooler.

    down to super cheap for a couple of metres of 3/8th oil hose.....

    half hour job, pulled the little hose's off the steel oil lines from the gearbox, ran the new hoses from there up to the oil cooler which i mounted on the left side behind the grill......

    and taadaa!!!!!!! it now sits happily in the middle of the temp gauge, rather then bordering on red...........the poor radiator isnt tryign to cool engine and gear box at once.......

    total cost, about 35 bucks (the hose cost more then the oil cooler)

    next step in the cooling saga..........extending the air cleaner intake so it doesnt suck in hot air directly behind the radiator fan...........

    and then perhaps some sort of engine oil cooling..........i know autobahn used to sell kits the screwed into the oil filter socket, with two hoses running to a little cooler, and back to the filter which piggybacks on the oil cooler fitting....maybe i can figure something out....

    i also have a spare bonnet, im going to take it to work, and have a look at cutting and folding some rear facing cooling fins, similar to the type you see on the sides of vintage car bonnets.......gets the hot air out the top very well, rather then down past the motor and box....also encourages cool air to come up from underneith.......

    also seriously looking at finding a bigger radiator, or maybe just re-core-ing the old one..........


    does anyone else have any sugestions or things they've tried, done, successfully or not????????

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    ill keep posting as it goes on......maybe all these things arnt nessisary, but it was 40 degrees the other day, driving home on the hilly motor way from ipswich, the air outside at 90 klms/h was still hot on my hand out the window, a bit mean on the old pug.......

    the car has a new water pump, and thermostat, and the head gasket is definatly on the right way around, im pretty sure its just the long hilly drive along the ipswich motor way in the afternoon heat, followed by stop start stop start through rocklea........thats whats giving it a hard time...

    and besides ive alreaddy blown one head gasket on that road...i dont want to do another.........lol

    sorry about long post, just wondering if anyone else is interested in better cooling....
    Last edited by 123abc; 7th October 2005 at 09:56 PM.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default big radiators for 504

    Quote Originally Posted by 123abc
    ok, so maybe im behind the times........but ive embarked on a cooling saga..........

    the little old 504 is really doing it tough, driveing to and from ipswich in this recent hot weather every day, sooooooooo....

    off the the wreckers, swapped my hard earned ten bucks for an oil cooler.

    down to super cheap for a couple of metres of 3/8th oil hose.....

    half hour job, pulled the little hose's off the steel oil lines from the gearbox, ran the new hoses from there up to the oil cooler which i mounted on the left side behind the grill......

    and taadaa!!!!!!! it now sits happily in the middle of the temp gauge, rather then bordering on red...........the poor radiator isnt tryign to cool engine and gear box at once.......

    total cost, about 35 bucks (the hose cost more then the oil cooler)

    next step in the cooling saga..........extending the air cleaner intake so it doesnt suck in hot air directly behind the radiator fan...........

    and then perhaps some sort of engine oil cooling..........i know autobahn used to sell kits the screwed into the oil filter socket, with two hoses running to a little cooler, and back to the filter which piggybacks on the oil cooler fitting....maybe i can figure something out....

    i also have a spare bonnet, im going to take it to work, and have a look at cutting and folding some rear facing cooling fins, similar to the type you see on the sides of vintage car bonnets.......gets the hot air out the top very well, rather then down past the motor and box....also encourages cool air to come up from underneith.......

    also seriously looking at finding a bigger radiator, or maybe just re-core-ing the old one..........


    does anyone else have any sugestions or things they've tried, done, successfully or not????????

    ill keep posting as it goes on......maybe all these things arnt nessisary, but it was 40 degrees the other day, driving home on the hilly motor way from ipswich, the air outside at 90 klms/h was still hot on my hand out the window, a bit mean on the old pug.......

    the car has a new water pump, and thermostat, and the head gasket is definatly on the right way around, im pretty sure its just the long hilly drive along the ipswich motor way in the afternoon heat, followed by stop start stop start through rocklea........thats whats giving it a hard time...

    and besides ive alreaddy blown one head gasket on that road...i dont want to do another.........lol

    sorry about long post, just wondering if anyone else is interested in better cooling....

    One of the crossflow Holden v8 radiators fit rather well. You need to cut a section of front panel out and mount the radiator off the front panel behind the grille using the existing 504 rubber mounting washers and some big washers and 8mm bolts. .

    Also you need to get the spigots moved and cut one of the hoses and use a piece of pipe in to extend it. The fan switch threaded plug also needs to be fitted, plus a catch tank.. A sacrifical 504 radiator is the best idea.

    I did this to my 504 Ti so the aircon didn't overheat the engine all the time.
    I also took off the 504 clutched fan and used the existing fan switch and a relay to run an electric fan. The aircon compressor clutch also turned on the fan.

    I can't remember the exact model Holden Radiator but a take measure and visit to a wrecker should find that out.

    It was a total fix to all cooling problems.





    You could also fit a double thickness v8 core - I didn't but the option is opwen.

  3. #3
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    i did the same thing with an oil cooler on another car so that now it dosent run through the radiator (it is a large cooler), most cars ive seen with bad cooling systems (unless the engine is a not standed) has been due to blocked or semi blocked core's, my TI still runs the electromagnetic fan and i am going to scrapp it for an electric one, but to controll it i will probly get one of those adjustable thermostats from autobarn(i think it was there).

    just my 2 cents worth, regards david

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    ade
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    this makes me think of an idea I had earlier. I have just removed the auto out of my 504 and replaced it with a 5-speed. The 505 auto radiator is still in place and dont see any reason to replace it. What I was thinking was if I circulated the oil through the now redundant transmission fluid cooler would it be an effective method of cooling the oil? Obviously it would be no cooler than the coolant temperature wereas a normal oil cooler would help the oil temperature approach air temperature. What sort of temperature does engine oil approach? greater than 110C???

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    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ade
    this makes me think of an idea I had earlier. I have just removed the auto out of my 504 and replaced it with a 5-speed. The 505 auto radiator is still in place and dont see any reason to replace it. What I was thinking was if I circulated the oil through the now redundant transmission fluid cooler would it be an effective method of cooling the oil? Obviously it would be no cooler than the coolant temperature wereas a normal oil cooler would help the oil temperature approach air temperature. What sort of temperature does engine oil approach? greater than 110C???


    Hmmmmm, i asume your talking about now running engine oil through the old transmission cooler..................

    i dunno really what it would do, but im Very interested to find out........

    perhaps someone out there has a temperature probe on their multimeter, maybe they would be kind enough to measure the temp of their oil and water.........

    i guess the basic laws of physics can be applied...

    if the engine oil is HOTTER then the water, then running it through the transmission cooler in the radiator would COOL the oil and WARM the water...

    if the oil is COOLER then the water, then the oil would get HOTTER and the water would get COOLER.....

    anyways, the 504 went superbly today on the ipswich motorway, it stayed well away from redlineing the temp, the seperate transmission oil cooler really works a treat, the radiator hasnt got that extra load on it.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ade
    this makes me think of an idea I had earlier. I have just removed the auto out of my 504 and replaced it with a 5-speed. The 505 auto radiator is still in place and dont see any reason to replace it. What I was thinking was if I circulated the oil through the now redundant transmission fluid cooler would it be an effective method of cooling the oil? Obviously it would be no cooler than the coolant temperature wereas a normal oil cooler would help the oil temperature approach air temperature. What sort of temperature does engine oil approach? greater than 110C???
    The main thing to check here is PRESSURE. Usually the auto trans coolers are only a low pressure line (maybe 5 - 10 psi?) then returning to the auto. The engine oil pressure would need to be safely 100 psi. I may be wrong but I dont think the radiator cooler would be safe to run engine oil pressure.

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    ade
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    Quote Originally Posted by ade
    this makes me think of an idea I had earlier. I have just removed the auto out of my 504 and replaced it with a 5-speed. The 505 auto radiator is still in place and dont see any reason to replace it. What I was thinking was if I circulated the oil through the now redundant transmission fluid cooler would it be an effective method of cooling the oil? Obviously it would be no cooler than the coolant temperature wereas a normal oil cooler would help the oil temperature approach air temperature. What sort of temperature does engine oil approach? greater than 110C???

    I have just done a bit of research and found that typically coolant and engine oil temperatures are ideally kept at approximately the same temperature, 90C, ignoring localised and temporary variations. Maybe not as silly as i thought. Has anybody tried it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ade
    I have just done a bit of research and found that typically coolant and engine oil temperatures are ideally kept at approximately the same temperature, 90C, ignoring localised and temporary variations. Maybe not as silly as i thought. Has anybody tried it?
    Your temperature theory is quite sound - in fact oil coolers running in the cooling system are quite common - I can name Mercedes Benz truck/bus diesel engines for example, where a oil cooler "matrix" is bolted into the side of the engine block (in the water jacket). The engine oil runs hotter than the coolant so it does tend to even them out which is the ideal, as you say. But then the radiator needs to have the capacity to cool the oil as well as the coolant. A separate oil/air cooler doesnt affect the radiator cooling.

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    ade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman
    Your temperature theory is quite sound - in fact oil coolers running in the cooling system are quite common - I can name Mercedes Benz truck/bus diesel engines for example, where a oil cooler "matrix" is bolted into the side of the engine block (in the water jacket). The engine oil runs hotter than the coolant so it does tend to even them out which is the ideal, as you say. But then the radiator needs to have the capacity to cool the oil as well as the coolant. A separate oil/air cooler doesnt affect the radiator cooling.
    But the radiator would still be dissipating less heat than its intended purpose if the amount of heat disipated from the engine oil was less than that of the transmission fluid. Is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ade
    this makes me think of an idea I had earlier. I have just removed the auto out of my 504 and replaced it with a 5-speed. The 505 auto radiator is still in place and dont see any reason to replace it. What I was thinking was if I circulated the oil through the now redundant transmission fluid cooler would it be an effective method of cooling the oil? Obviously it would be no cooler than the coolant temperature wereas a normal oil cooler would help the oil temperature approach air temperature. What sort of temperature does engine oil approach? greater than 110C???

    Using the water and oil temperature guages on the Mi16 as an example - when all is warmed up the temperature of the oil and water is the same - 90C.
    Also if you look closely enough the Mi16 engine has a water/oil heat exchanger sandwiched under the oil filter. This was very common in European countries to help the oil warm up to correct operating temperatures.

    I would, however be concerned about the pressure issue if you feed the oil through the radiator. The oil pump on the engine is higher pressure than that of the gearbox.


    There is a second concern.
    From experience - I had a seperate oil cooler on the engine of my '86 505 Estate (1971cc pushrod engine) from 1993 through to 1999. In '99 I rebuilt the engine. When I did this I found the rocker shafts were completely blocked such that I had to get an long 8mm rod, grind a crude twist drill shape on the end and drill out the crud bit by bit.
    I commented on this to a friend at the time and he mentioned that it was a common problem if the oil was too cold and that engine oil coolers were really only designed/needed for race/rally conditions where the revs are consistently high and the oil is the only stuff used to cool some very hard working and therefore very hot pistons. It is these conditions where the oil gets hotter than normal and needs extra cooling.

    So I took the oil cooler off and haven't had a problem since

    Roland
    Last edited by Roland; 13th October 2005 at 02:01 AM.

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    ade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland
    Using the water and oil temperature guages on the Mi16 as an example - when all is warmed up the temperature of the oil and water is the same - 90C.
    Also if you look closely enough the Mi16 engine has a water/oil heat exchanger sandwiched under the oil filter. This was very common in European countries to help the oil warm up to correct operating temperatures.

    I would, however be concerned about the pressure issue if you feed the oil through the radiator. The oil pump on the engine is higher pressure than that of the gearbox.


    There is a second concern.
    From experience - I had a seperate oil cooler on the engine of my '86 505 Estate (1971cc pushrod engine) from 1993 through to 1999. In '99 I rebuilt the engine. When I did this I found the rocker shafts were completely blocked such that I had to get an long 8mm rod, grind a crude twist drill shape on the end and drill out the crud bit by bit.
    I commented on this to a friend at the time and he mentioned that it was a common problem if the oil was too cold and that engine oil coolers were really only designed/needed for race/rally conditions where the revs are consistently high and the oil is the only stuff used to cool some very hard working and therefore very hot pistons. It is these conditions where the oil gets hotter than normal and needs extra cooling.

    So I took the oil cooler off and haven't had a problem since

    Roland

    I knew there had to be a reason 1) Why don't they incorporate oil coolers with radiators 2) Why oil coolers are generally not used (while transmission coolers are without exception).

    Whether your explanation is correct or not, it does sound quite logical, to do it would seem very redundant in most cars. It reminds me of somebody on heres great little signature "If it aint broke get a 12" shifter, that will usually do the trick"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ade
    I knew there had to be a reason 1) Why don't they incorporate oil coolers with radiators 2) Why oil coolers are generally not used (while transmission coolers are without exception).

    Whether your explanation is correct or not, it does sound quite logical, to do it would seem very redundant in most cars. It reminds me of somebody on heres great little signature "If it aint broke get a 12" shifter, that will usually do the trick"

    Just to finish the whole story of my car
    Its a 1986 505 Estate - 1971cc Pushrod engine.
    I bought it in Wales in 1992 when I got over there for a working holiday. Drove it around England for a year then brought it out here to Perth.

    Coming from UK I was concerned about the small radiator and possible overheating - thats why I put the oil cooler on.
    BUT
    more significantly I had the radiator rebuilt with a new core except I had it extended and it is now 1 1/2 times as long as the original.
    As a result I have never had any overheating problems.

    best of luck
    Roland

  13. #13
    ade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland
    Just to finish the whole story of my car
    Its a 1986 505 Estate - 1971cc Pushrod engine.
    I bought it in Wales in 1992 when I got over there for a working holiday. Drove it around England for a year then brought it out here to Perth.

    Coming from UK I was concerned about the small radiator and possible overheating - thats why I put the oil cooler on.
    BUT
    more significantly I had the radiator rebuilt with a new core except I had it extended and it is now 1 1/2 times as long as the original.
    As a result I have never had any overheating problems.

    best of luck
    Roland
    hey don't get me wrong, I was poo-pooing my idea, not what you have done.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    Default Changing Engine Oil.

    On the subject of engine oil temperature.
    Have always serviced tuned and repaired my own vehicles where possible. I figure that I can make a mistake a lot cheaper than a Service Centre.
    When changing oil I always take the vehicle for a run to warm up the oil before draining.
    Now when cars are dropped off at service centres do they do the same.
    Or is the oil drained at whatever temp it is when they get around to that car?
    Draining the oil cold suely wouldn't remove all the sludge.
    Be kind of like fitting an inline fuel filter but allowing the muck collected to flow back down the fuel pipe when changing one.

    Paul.
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ade
    hey don't get me wrong, I was poo-pooing my idea, not what you have done.

    No worries!
    I hadn't even started to think you were poo pooing me or what I had done.
    Just want to pass on helpfull experiences!
    Roland

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