ethanol v biodiesel
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  1. #1
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    Default ethanol v biodiesel

    Andrew sounds like he knows what he is talking about re ethanol.
    Just thinking, how does bio diesel stak up enviromentally?

    I know that hybrids (like Toyotas) don't emit a great deal of CO2, but the average shitkicker like me is unlikely to buy one of these complicated things.
    Must admit they are a nice drive as i had the use of one for a day. Still used 6.2l/km in city traffic with the a/c always on as it was a stinking hot day.

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    A biodiesel car that shuts the engine (with these combined alternator/startermotors) in stop go peak hour traffic would be the go - my guess.
    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo
    Andrew sounds like he knows what he is talking about re ethanol.
    Just thinking, how does bio diesel stak up enviromentally?

    I know that hybrids (like Toyotas) don't emit a great deal of CO2, but the average shitkicker like me is unlikely to buy one of these complicated things.
    Must admit they are a nice drive as i had the use of one for a day. Still used 6.2l/km in city traffic with the a/c always on as it was a stinking hot day.

    A biodiesel car that shuts the engine (with these combined alternator/startermotors) in stop go peak hour traffic would be the go - my guess.
    Any thoughts?
    Unfortunately I didn't record the source of the following information but its pretty comprehensive.

    Quote
    EMISSIONS.
    (BAA)

    Biodiesel is the first and only alternative fuel to have a complete evaluation of emission results and potential health effects submitted to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) under the Clean Air Act Section 211(b). These programs include the most stringent emissions testing protocols ever required by EPA for certification of fuels or fuel additives in the US. The data gathered through these tests complete the most thorough inventory of the environmental and human health effects attributes that current technology will allow. A survey of the results is provided in the table below.

    BIODIESEL EMISSIONS COMPARED TO CONVENTIONAL DIESEL

    Emission Type B100 B20

    Regulated
    Total Unburned Hydrocarbons -93% -30%

    Carbon Monoxide -50% -20%

    Particulate Matter 130% -22%

    Nox +13% +2%

    Non-Regulated
    Sulfates -100% -20%

    PAH (Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons)** -80% -13%

    nPAH (nitrated PAHís)** -90% -50%***

    Ozone potential of speciated HC -50% -10%

    * Estimated from B100 result

    ** Average reduction across all compounds measured

    *** 2-nitroflourine results were within test method variability


    The overall ozone (smog) forming potential of biodiesel is less than diesel fuel. The ozone forming potential of the speciated hydrocarbon emissions was nearly 50 percent less than that measured for diesel fuel.

    Sulphur emissions are essentially eliminated with pure biodiesel. The exhaust emissions of sulphur oxides and sulfates (major components of acid rain) from biodiesel were essentially eliminated compared to sulphur oxides and sulphates from diesel.

    Criteria pollutants are reduced with biodiesel use. The use of biodiesel in an unmodified Cummins N14 diesel engine resulted in substantial reductions of unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and particulate matter. Emissions of nitrogen oxides were slightly increased.

    Carbon Monoxide -- The exhaust emissions of carbon monoxide (a poisonous gas) from biodiesel were 50 percent lower than carbon monoxide emissions from diesel.

    Particulate Matter -- Breathing particulate has been shown to be a human health hazard. The exhaust emissions of particulate matter from biodiesel were 30 percent lower than overall particulate matter emissions from diesel.

    Hydrocarbons -- The exhaust emissions of total hydrocarbons (a contributing factor in the localized formation of smog and ozone) were 93 percent lower for biodiesel than diesel fuel.

    Nitrogen Oxides -- NOx emissions from biodiesel increase or decrease depending on the engine family and testing procedures. NOx emissions (a contributing factor in the localized formation of smog and ozone) from pure (100%) biodiesel increased in this test by 13 percent. However, biodieselís lack of sulphur allows the use of NOx control technologies that cannot be used with conventional diesel. So, biodiesel NOx emissions can be effectively managed and efficiently eliminated as a concern of the fuelís use.

    Biodiesel reduces the health risks associated with petroleum diesel. Biodiesel emissions showed decreased levels of PAH and nitrited PAH compounds which have been identified as potential cancer causing compounds. In the recent testing, PAH compounds were reduced by 75 to 85 percent, with the exception of benzo(a)anthracene, which was reduced by roughly 50 percent. Targeted nPAH compounds were also reduced dramatically with biodiesel fuel, with 2-nitrofluorene and 1-nitropyrene reduced by 90 percent, and the rest of the nPAH compounds reduced to only trace levels.
    End of Quote.

    From my own experience the visual pollution levels are much lower and the smell of the exhaust much more pleasant.
    My Hilux 4wd has a 2.2L diesel engine. On Petroleum diesel its an embarassment to drive as it lays a cloud of black smoke if the revs drop below optimum or if the pedal is floored. Both situations are inevitable in such an underpowered vehicle. Switching over to straight biodiesel has fixed all that, nice clean exhaust with just a trace of white smoke under load.
    Have heard of truckies in the US having their rigs failed for pollution, then draining their tanks, filling with biodiesel, being retested and passing with flying colours.
    I've never encountered anything with so many advantages all round as biodiesel.

    Paul.
    504-504-504
    Northern Outpost
    Soon to have a diesel 504 running on both biodiesel and Straight Vegetable Oil.
    Last edited by 504-504-504; 27th September 2005 at 12:54 AM.

  3. #3
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    Default Biodiesel Information.

    Energy Balance/Energy Life Cycle Inventory
    Ethanol versus Gasoline
    Bio-Diesel versus Petroleum Diesel
    http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ethanol/balance.html

    a good site to get some basic information about biodiesel
    www.journeytoforever.org
    and click on biofuels.

    Paul
    504-504-504
    Northern Outpost.

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    mmh,
    that US evalutation sounds very interesting. Good news anyway!

    I run my Renault 25 td (Engine type J like R25gtx with swirl chambers, Turbo and Bosch injection pump) on Straight vegetable oil (SVO). In Europe, the price of biodiesel is always a few cents lower than the price of diesel. Thus- biodiesel has become quite expensive. SVO, on the contrary, has remained at about 60c /l.

    What are the advantages of SVO?
    - decentralized production possible (I used to fill the tank at a local farmer's)
    - no methanol added (often crude oil derivative)
    - does not eat gaskets and seals of the injection system.
    - positive emission characeristics, similar to those of biodiesel
    - lower price

    Disadvantages:
    - higher viscosity than biodiesel => conversion recommended.

    Conversion:
    Indirect injection models are usually easy to convert, especially with a Bosch rotary pump or a inline injection pump: Usually you need some device to heat up the oil and a healthy diesel engine.
    Don't try SVO or Biodiesel with Lucas/Roto/CAV rotary pumps! It will cost you a lot of money! Direct injection models are more tricky to convert.

    Regards
    daniel

    more info:
    http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67204/index.htm

    My conversion includes:
    - SWEP water/SVO heat exchanger hidden behind the fuel filter
    - new and upgraded injectors at a higher pressure
    - injection timing - earlier settings
    - longer glow plugs
    => trouble free for about 40tkms.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ethanol v biodiesel-motor.jpg   ethanol v biodiesel-kbe.jpg  

  5. #5
    Member The Pugmeister's Avatar
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    http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsst...2654/story.htm
    Interesting take on Diesel vs Hybrid. It argues that Diesels may be better than hybrids on the environmental stakes for a number of reasons. Rubbished by Toyota of course as they have a lot invested in Hybrid technology.

    Check these guys out, Axiom Energy. www.axiomenergyltd.com.au . They are building a biodiesel plant in Laverton, Vic. Part of it will also produce diesel from waste plastic. The technical info in the prospectus makes interesting reading as to how they plan to make it and source the raw materials.
    1954 203a

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 504-504-504
    Energy Balance/Energy Life Cycle Inventory
    Ethanol versus Gasoline
    Bio-Diesel versus Petroleum Diesel
    http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ethanol/balance.html

    a good site to get some basic information about biodiesel
    www.journeytoforever.org
    and click on biofuels.

    Paul
    504-504-504
    Northern Outpost.
    Thank you very much for all that info Paul and Daniel. It just takes quite a bit of know how but i feel i'm almost ready to start experimenting.
    SVO unfortunatley seem only viable on longer trips
    Great info, thank you
    Jobo

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    Quote Originally Posted by 504-504-504
    Paul.
    504-504-504
    Northern Outpost
    Soon to have a diesel 504 running on both biodiesel and Straight Vegetable Oil.
    Paul,

    Are you still going to try SVO in the 504 given that Daniel has warned against using it in CAV injector pumps?
    Stephen
    '03 P406 HDI
    '16 Renault Master

  8. #8
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    The lubricating properties of B100 also make it really nice for engines and injection pumps. As they pull more and more sulphur out of petroleum diesel, this may become a problem for that kind of fuel.

    It's already sold throughout Europe as a blend and as a straight fuel.

  9. #9
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    Yes and my 307 HDi running on biodiesel beats a hybrid hands down on emissions and will nearly do them in on economy as well.

    More room, fun to drive (no smart answers needed I own a 205GTi as well) and it does not cost the same. Taxes make it more expensive than it need to be anyway.

    Quiet, no exhaust smell and it runs beautifully.

    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfrawley
    Paul,

    Are you still going to try SVO in the 504 given that Daniel has warned against using it in CAV injector pumps?
    Thats a point to be considered Stephen.
    Might end up doing the conversion to the Hilux instead.
    Overlooked that one thanks for pointing it out.

    Paul,
    504-504-504
    Northern Outpost

  11. #11
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    Hi there,
    yes, pleaser remember: Don't try it on roto pumps. The German fmso.de forum has a history of about 6 years. The experience is: Roto pumps seem to give up quickly with the highly viscous fuel.
    Bosch/Kiki/Zetzel roto pumps usually do quite well with preheated svo. Reving after cold starts can kill them- and higher pressures can cause leaks.
    Bosch inline pumps in combination with indirect injection seem to need no conversion at all. (eg in Mercedes 190d, 200d, 250d or 300d/turbo- and AFAIK in some Toyota Landcruiser)
    Used frying oil is a different story as it often includes water and or acids.

    An important point to consider is the following: Both, SVO and Biodiesel must not come into contact with your engine oil.
    Indirect injection models don't usually suffer from this problem - you might get blue smoke but usually no fuel entering the engine oil because of the pre-chamber construction.

    Direct injection engines use different types of injectors (often with 5 or more holes). They cannot produce an even spray on cold starts- and thus SVO (and in some cases even biodiesel) can come into contact with the engine oil producing polymerisation => black jelly instead of engine oil
    So if you ever notice your engine oil rising (or blue smoke in your DI), change the oil at once. This is what can happen if you don't (scroll down: Biodiesel in VW TDI)
    http://www.fatty-fuels.de/messages/39063.html

    To convert the hilux is a better choice- I think it is what they sell as VW taro in Germany (there it is equipped with a 2,4d diesel engine/ 75HP and Denso-rotor pump). Try 30 or 50% and see what happens. Don't try 100% if you'd have to buy a new pump from Toyota.

    Daniel

    p.s. there is an English section of the fmso page. Just klick on the british flag!
    Last edited by Daniel R25; 15th October 2005 at 11:21 PM. Reason: correct spelling

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    Default C.A.V. Injector Pumps as on 504D

    [QUOTE=Daniel R25]-

    Conversion: (For Straight Vegetable Oil)
    Indirect injection models are usually easy to convert, especially with a Bosch rotary pump or a inline injection pump: Usually you need some device to heat up the oil and a healthy diesel engine.
    Don't try SVO or Biodiesel with Lucas/Roto/CAV rotary pumps! It will cost you a lot of money! Direct injection models are more tricky to convert.

    Regards
    daniel

    more info:
    http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67204/index.htm
    (End Quote)

    Thanks for the link Daniel./
    Unfortunately I'm not fluent in German.
    Here is another link to another forum which discusses the matter in some depth and it doesn't look to be all doom and gloom.

    http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...?tid=56&page=1

    Use with biodiesel seems ok (I will probably warm the biodiesel to reduce its viscosity as a precaution)
    Main thing with SVO seems to be to get the CAV pump up to temperature before switching over to SVO. Fuel alone won't heat the pump up enough, it gets most of its heat from the engine block. Other brands/types of pumps pass more fuel through them and can heat up quicker.
    My 504 Diesel manual shows two types of pump the rotary CAV and an inline Bosch. Might pay me to investigate weather the Bosch pump was used in Australia, I'm fairly sure my 3 504 Diesels all have CAV pumps.

    Paul,
    504-504-504,
    Northern Outpost.
    Last edited by 504-504-504; 14th October 2005 at 11:33 PM.

  13. #13
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    Paul, if you really want to know about the stuff on the German website i'd be happy to translate it.
    JoBo

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    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    Default Translation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo
    Paul, if you really want to know about the stuff on the German website i'd be happy to translate it.
    JoBo
    Thanks JoBo, I'm an information hound. Keen to learn all I can about these pumps. Perhaps others would be interested too.
    Just pick out the bits you feel are relevant.
    Thanks for the time you are putting into it.

    Paul,
    504-504-504,
    Northern Outpost.

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