Ethanol in our local petrols
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    BDG
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    Default Ethanol in our local petrols

    Is this a good thing for the motorist? Is it compatible with FRENCH cars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BDG
    Is this a good thing for the motorist? Is it compatible with FRENCH cars?
    No problems so far and good value at 5 cents less than 91 for 94 octane.
    Graham

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    To sumarise from the site Troy posted

    Citroen
    All Citroen vehicles are required to run on minimum 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded petrol). Citroen vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E5 blended petrol (European Standard EN 228). However, E10 blended petrol is not recommended because of drivability and/or material compatibility issues. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

    Peugeot
    All Peugeot vehicles are required to run on minimum 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded petrol). Peugeot vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E5 blended petrol (European Standard EN 228). However, E10 blended petrol is not recommended because of drivability and/or material compatibility issues. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

    Renault
    All petrol engine vehicles since 2001 will operate satisfactorily on E10 but Renault does not recommend its use.

    I imagine the ECU will reset the ignition curves to compensate for the
    change in the fuel but that will mean a corresponding drop in performance
    hence the 'not recommended' from Renault and the comments against
    the others. The 'material compatibility issues' is a worry, ethanol is a VERY
    good solvent and can dissolve lots of plastics and rubbers, then there is the
    issue of the extra water produced in the exhaust gasses from the burnt
    ethanol and the resulting impacts this would have on the exhaust system
    as it cools and precipitates into the system.

    cheers,
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    drivability is only a concern in extremes

    in cold weather it can make an engine run 'off' and in hot weather you can get vapour locks

    otherwise there is no harm in running E10

    it 'may' attack some plastic lines

    do a search on here for ethanol

    BTW ethanol actually raises the RON value but lowers the power output form the burn although it burns cleaner than straight petrol

    E10 was quoted to reduce the price by 10cpl when i was reading info about it the other day

    if you want to give it a go then throw some metho in the tank as it is 95% ethanol

    petroleum grade ethanol is 98% but you can make your own and get around 96% ethanol, any higher than that it starts to cost you around $1.30/L to make it

    of course the lower the ethanol grade you make the cheaper it is but then you may as well drink it
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    Quote Originally Posted by biologist
    To sumarise from the site Troy posted
    ...
    Where on the site did you see the info on E5? It all seems to be about E10.

    Cheers, Jon
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    Quote Originally Posted by 106 Rallye
    Where on the site did you see the info on E5? It all seems to be about E10.

    Cheers, Jon
    It's state under the breakdown by each manufacturer further down the page.

    Troy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyO
    It's state under the breakdown by each manufacturer further down the page.

    Troy.
    Thanks - I was looking at another manufacturer that has no comments for E5.
    unfrogged (for now)

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    Hi, not too sure about the details but can't see a problem as there is no plastic to dissolve in the fuel system - as far as the R19 goes.
    However, the last few days i drove my daughter's '91 Suzuki GA 3 cylinder. I put in United Plus ULP and the thing goes extremly well with it.
    While it is not my prefered drive it does everything very well (handeling is not the best but possibly due to being light) and the engine reves like a sewing machine inspite of having done almost 180 000km. No oil top up between 5000km oil changes. As far as other problems go with that car, yeah, i changed the cam belt, brakes, clutch, tyres and thermostate. Not bad for some jap crap.
    Also, this car used to run on. A week ago i put some stuff (german made from Bursons through the carby) and it stoped this problem -at least for now.
    Last edited by JoBo; 26th September 2005 at 05:20 PM.

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    My concerns about ethanol do not relate to its inclusion (although E10 I'd be worried), but how much more unfriendly it is to the environment.

    Ethanol produced from cane sugar (and other similar processes) uses a *lot* of energy. More energy than it releases once burnt as part of the fuel. Coupled with the fact that this is a pork barrel for one of the PM's mates (look up Manildra in Google) and that it will artificially prop up an unsustainable crop (sugar, and other crops which have bugger all value instead of something actually valuable being produced instead on this arable land, like high grade wool or premium crops - ie those fancy vegies you see on TV).

    If we're trying to reduce Australia's CO2 emissions, then we should not be using ethanol produced using this path.

    Ethanol produced using grain or sugar requires high heat at several points in its production, and once the ethanol is extracted, a byproduct is CO2. This CO2 is either vented directly to the atomsphere or scrubbed. If it's scrubbed, it has to be disposed of, which usually means sequestration, thus raising the costs of production to uneconomics levels.

    Plus when ethanol burns, it produces:

    2.17 x C2H5OH + 1 x O2 -> 4.34 CO2 + 2 x H2O

    So basically, not only does the initial process produce a lot of CO2 which needs to be dealt with, the burning of the ethanol produces even more CO2. If we're doing this to be "clean" and to avoid nasty oil, then we're stuffed.

    Ooops, forgot. It's to help Howard's mates at Manildra and pork barrel farmers who insist on producing unprofitable and undesirable crops at our expense.

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    mmmmm .... no comments on the economics, suitability for engines or environmental impact of it all, but after paying $1.76.4 / litre the otherday, there has to be a better alternative*#.

    - xTc -

    * other then not drive (or walk or ride etc etc).

    # Countries like Brazil have embraced ethanol, how are they dealing with it ?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ethanol in  our  local  petrols-att00115.jpg  
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    Interesting comments on ethanol.

    Some years ago Ian Diffen ran ethanol in a racing Valiant Charger at Claremont Speedway. The engine was also ran for test purposes in his Bathurst Charger at Wanneroo.
    From memory power was the same after some re setting of engine tune and laps times were the same.
    Perhaps someone remembers details and will post.
    Ian set up a proper factory at Wundowie amd produced commercial quantities but did not get much support.

    Ethanol also has same excise as petrol and I understand LPG excise will be increased next year to bring it in line with petrol.
    People in the beurocracy must sit all day thinking of schemes to increase costs to the public.

    I wonder why once upon a time they were called Public Servants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC
    mmmmm .... no comments on the economics, suitability for engines or environmental impact of it all, but after paying $1.76.4 / litre the otherday, there has to be a better alternative*#.

    - xTc -

    * other then not drive (or walk or ride etc etc).

    # Countries like Brazil have embraced ethanol, how are they dealing with it ?
    Holy snapping duck poo Batman! Can I guess that the fuel was that price somewhere near Ceduna? Was it for PULP?

    I would hate to think what the price is like at places like Balladonia at present
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    Having been involved in aviation as are some other forum members this is interesting.
    At 247,000 dollars, the ethanol version of the Ipanema costs 14,000 dollars more than one that burns regular aviation fuel. But the savings on fuel costs can be substantial. One liter (0.26 gallon) of ethanol in Brazil costs 0.44 dollars, while a liter of gasoline runs 1.85 dollars. In addition, Padilha said, the ethanol version is more durable and seven percent more powerful than the gasoline version. "It reduces the costs of production," he said. As it pushes to conserve petroleum-based fuels, the Brazilian government sees a large market for ethanol in Brazil's 14,000-strong aircraft fleet.

    The country hopes to equip all small single and twin-engine aircraft with ethanol-burning capability, according to Paulo Sergio Edwald, an engineer of the national civil aviation regulator Centro Tecnico Aeroespacial. For Neiva, the primary target is adapting the hundreds of Ipanemas already flying around the country, and they have already received over 100 conversion orders.

    Neiva also hopes to convert the 150 six-passenger Sertanejo and Minuano aircraft in the country, which have engines similar to the Ipanema's. Brazil has the world's second largest fleet of small planes, with 14,000, just behind the United States. The American firm Textron Lycoming makes the IO-540 engine for the Ipanema.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    Holy snapping duck poo Batman! Can I guess that the fuel was that price somewhere near Ceduna? Was it for PULP?

    I would hate to think what the price is like at places like Balladonia at present
    Ceduna was cheap at $1.49.9. Even Port Augusta was $1.48.9. Norseman $1.47.9, and at Bordertown $1.64 (which I though would be the highest) But this crazy price for Ron98 was Cocklebiddy. Didn't stop at Balladonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC
    Ceduna was cheap at $1.49.9. Even Port Augusta was $1.48.9. Norseman $1.47.9, and at Bordertown $1.64 (which I though would be the highest) But this crazy price for Ron98 was Cocklebiddy. Didn't stop at Balladonia.

    - xTc -
    Ah yes, we had been warned about Cocklebiddy and when I saw the price as we stopped for a break I was VERY glad that the XM has an 85l tank and we knew we would get well past there with what we had left in the tank. IIRC, the highest price we paid on the whole trip was 129.9 for plain ULP - that was back in March/April mind you.
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    Brazil creates its ethanol from the massive sugar plantations which effectively gives their local farmers a job for life as the Brazilian govt mandated E25 for all cars. Brazilian engines are significantly altered to take E25.

    The problems with creating ethanol from non-hydrocarbon sources still remains - it takes far more energy to produce than it will emit, and it will emit more CO2 than normal petrol.

    The cost reductions are simply due to the fact that oil is taxed at 38 c per litre for excise and add on top of that GST, whereas ethanol just has GST.

    Normal unleaded

    Using Shell's figures for today:
    fuel cost + retail margin + excise + gst = price
    70.4 + 4.6 + 38 + gst = 124.4

    Ethanol cost

    Let's assume ethanol costs $0.85 c per litre to make - but it has a 38.143c subsidy (I bet you didn't know that , so let's call it $0.45 c per litre, which is the current figure bandied about when you read various pro-ethanol websites.

    I've factored in a 6.67% retail margin - this seems to work considering Shell's website. It's no wonder that they prefer you to buy a packet of chocolates - they probably make more from the chocolates than the sale of fuel.

    Code:
    Mix	Product	Ethanol	Retail	Excise	GST	Price
    0%	$70.40	$0.00	$4.72	$38.00	$11.31	$124.43
    5%	$66.88	$2.34	$4.64	$36.10	$11.00	$120.96
    10%	$63.36	$4.69	$4.56	$34.20	$10.68	$117.49
    25%	$52.80	$11.71	$4.32	$28.50	$9.73	$107.07
    E5 will save only 3.47 c per litre, which you can get using a supermarket docket. E25 realizes the full 10c per litre claimed by the ethanol industry.

    However, you remember that 38c per litre subsidy (which is on top of the lack of excise)? In 2000, we travelled 181 billion km according to the ABS (http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/[email protected]?OpenDocument). Let's say that you can travel 10 l/100 km in the average Australian car, that's 18 billion litres of fuel bought every year. If ethanol was a 25% mix, that's 4.5 billion litres of ethanol and $1.71 billion dollars of our money has gone to Manildra, and a smaller fraction of that to a small number farmers producing the crops for this massive pork barrel. Sure, if we ever get 25% (unlikely without ADR changes which takes forever), there will be other ethanol suppliers, but we are still going to be out of pocket to the tune of 1.71 billion or more.

    Imagine how many hospitals, unis, police, and schools $1.71 billion would have to go to pay for the ultimate pork barrel of all time.

    Andrew
    Last edited by vanderaj; 26th September 2005 at 01:18 AM.
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    I was surprised when I pulled up to a United petrol station to see this ethanol fuel. To see it some 5c a litre cheaper was pretty cool, but I was very wary to actually put it in my car!

    Where else can we get ethanol from other than sugar cane (or fermenting various fruits and vegetables)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Free
    I was surprised when I pulled up to a United petrol station to see this ethanol fuel. To see it some 5c a litre cheaper was pretty cool, but I was very wary to actually put it in my car!
    Exactly the same here, i was very hesitant on putting the ethanol fuel into my 306, but i didnt have enough money for a big mac so i had no choice. I only put 8 litres & i didnt notice any change, but still id tread carefully with it.

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    Surely Manildra will not be the only producer of ethanol. It is fairly simple science and method of manufacture to be more environmentally sound will happen.
    Of course we have hydrogen and nuclear in the future.
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    Ethanol can be made by two distinct methods - from the hydrocarbon path (using oil), and via biomass path.

    The biomass path, no matter if its molasses (sugar) or other grains, will always take a heap of energy to create - it's the chemical changes required in the mash to unleash the ethanol - it's just the way it works. In Brazil, instead of using energy from the grid, they burn the cane stalks (which are far larger and woodier than ours) to create the energy required. This obviously produces CO2 and particulates - anyone who has been to FNQ when they burnt the sugar fields knows how choking this can be. Without pollution controls, such as stack scrubbers and particulate filters, this would produce worse pollution than normal oil / brown coal production.

    I wouldn't have such a problem with Manildra, except that it's pork barrelling and protectionism pure and simple. It is cheaper to import the required ethanol from Brazil, but that's not going to happen whilst pork barrelling is in place. There was a disgraceful episode in 2002 when a ship containing Brazilian ethanol was on its way to Australia. The govt changed the law and effectively made the ships' cargo worthless, even though we didn't have enough ethanol at the time to meet the then demand. What they did was impose excise on non-Australian ethanol, which is against WTO rules. We WILL lose that in the WTO as it's an artificial trade barrier. In return for the $240 million Manildra made from this decision, they plonked $90,000 in the Liberal party coffers. If you or I bribed a politician in this exact same way, we'd be put in jail for contempt of parliament.

    The subsidies and protectionism causes a distortion in the market. That causes us to pay more for everything which ethanol production affects, not just the corporate welfare for Manildra. For example, if they start making as much ethanol as is required by the ethanol industry's plans, most of our grain and sugar crops will need to be turned into ethanol. Our farmers, producing premium beef and other more valuable farm produce need that grain to feed their animals. If there is a scarcity brought on by massive ethanol production, they will pay uneconomic rates for feed, which means that they can no longer afford to produce beef and other herds economically. This is due to the fact there is only so much arable land with adequate irrigation in Australia. It's a finite resource which is already under a great deal of stress if I am hearing Countrywide on the ABC correctly.

    Coupled with the trial looking at using rice (!) as one of the grains - we shouldn't be producing rice in Australia - it requires so much water, which is subsidized massively and environment destroying (see the MIA for details - what happen to the Murray is a direct consequence of trying to irrigate the unirrigatable), and to use this uneconomic crop to produce yet another boon doggle uneconomic product is just the most stupid idea I think I've ever come across. It would be far cheaper to say "You're a farmer - here's $100,000 year (call it farmer's dole). Sit on your hands and do nothing". It would distort the market less than this stupid proposal.

    Hydrogen comes from two sources: hydrocarbons (oil) and water. Hydrocarbon production is simple can be done today at today's refineries. Producing hydrogen from water takes energy, which today means burning brown coal (dirty) and releasing CO2 to make it.

    Our best shot for long term energy is nuclear power, coupled with buying more efficient internal combustion engines, such as diesel engines, until battery technology improves to the point where the average family could just charge their cars at night. We have some of the world's largest reserves of uranium and we should use it ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vanderaj
    Our best shot for long term energy is nuclear power, coupled with buying more efficient internal combustion engines, such as diesel engines, until battery technology improves to the point where the average family could just charge their cars at night. We have some of the world's largest reserves of uranium and we should use it ourselves.
    Thanks for the interesting posts Andrew.

    On the subject of nuclear power, here is a segment on 4 Corners that did get me thinking.

    Who's Afraid of Nuclear Power.

    Having lived in Sweden for a good period of time, I can say that nuclear power is a bit of a non event there these days. Very hard to argue with their green credentials either.

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    Default Ethanol..

    Quote Originally Posted by Westair
    Interesting comments on ethanol.

    Some years ago Ian Diffen ran ethanol in a racing Valiant Charger at Claremont Speedway. The engine was also ran for test purposes in his Bathurst Charger at Wanneroo.
    From memory power was the same after some re setting of engine tune and laps times were the same.
    Perhaps someone remembers details and will post.
    Ian set up a proper factory at Wundowie amd produced commercial quantities but did not get much support.

    Ethanol also has same excise as petrol and I understand LPG excise will be increased next year to bring it in line with petrol.
    People in the beurocracy must sit all day thinking of schemes to increase costs to the public.

    Westair,
    Correct me here but wasn't the Diffen car using grain alcohol?
    Bob Shepperd, a tyre dealer in Kalgoorlie was using this in his speedway car also.
    The production of this product may suffer the same drawbacks as sugar based ethanol in this country, something it appears our leaders wont accept!

    I wonder why once upon a time they were called Public Servants.
    Psst, sorry Westy for squeezing in on your post.

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    I wonder why once upon a time they were called Public Servants.[/QUOTE]

    Isn't it called the Public Aristocracy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vanderaj
    Coupled with the trial looking at using rice (!) as one of the grains - we shouldn't be producing rice in Australia - it requires so much water, which is subsidized massively
    Rice has only ever been subsidised in this drought. The drought assistance package totals 1.25 billion dollars to date but that does not just cover rice.
    People who are eliglible must:
    ∑ Earn the majority of your GROSS income from primary production.
    ∑ Be in working occupation of the farm
    ∑ Be within an area declared a natural disaster.
    ∑ Be in urgent and genuine need for financial assistance
    ∑ Demonstrate that if the required assistance were obtained commercially, your farm
    business enterprise would be placed in financial difficulty.
    ∑ Demonstrate that your business enterprise has long term viability.
    ∑ Demonstrate that your farm business enterprise has the capacity to repay the loan sought.
    ∑ Provide security, acceptable to the Rural Assistance Authority.

    As you can see it does not only apply to rice farmers and there is strict guidelines of who can apply. I know many people who could not be bothered with the paperwork for drought assistance so have just gotten another job.

    Quote Originally Posted by vanderaj
    (see the MIA for details - what happen to the Murray is a direct consequence of trying to irrigate the unirrigatable),
    What is wrong with the MIA? It is a very profitable area. It is big on wine, citrus and grain. All because of irrigation and daming of the Murray.
    Some of the wineries include DeBortoli's and Casella's amongest many others. Casella Wines is the maker of Yellow Tail and is the biggest Australian wine exporter to the USA. It also distributes to: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Cayman Islands, Iceland, Hong Kong, (the rest of the list is here:http://www.casellawines.com.au/distribution.asp). They are currently constructing the fastest bottling machine in the world which will work along side the fastest bottling machine in the southern hemisphere. Most of the wine comes from the vineyards of the Riverina/MIA with water from the Murray.

    The MIA is also the home of Bartter, a huge chicken and egg supplier (the largest in the southern hemisphere?) It recently bought out Steggles and now supplies: Coles, Woolworths, Safeway, Franklins, Bi-Lo, Newmart, Pick 'n Pay, Action and Foodland.

    The MIA also has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country thanks to the irrigation provided by Murray, the primary producers and the flow on effects of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by vanderaj
    and to use this uneconomic crop
    From the Broad of Studies website: The production of rice is now established as a key enterprise in Australiaís agricultural diversity. The satisfaction of domestic requirements, significant international trade and the cracking of the previously impregnable Japanese market has established Ďrice-growingí as a legitimate crop and an important component of Australiaís economy. http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au...ceprofile.html

    Exporting rice injects 500 million dollars into the economy annually. 40 million people overseas consume Australian rice each year.
    Last edited by Malcolm; 26th September 2005 at 07:52 PM.

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