I wonder? BX using oil.
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  1. #1
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Default I wonder? BX using oil.

    I've had a long running battle with a BX burning oil; no surprises there as it seems all TZi engines do it, but although I've tried a few things which have improved it, I still can't convince myself that an engine at that mileage needs rings. I haven't compared ring design with other BX engine, but I would have to imagine they'd be similar to other models and every test I've done hasn't shown the symptoms of valve stem seals.
    I only ever caught it blowing smoke once and that was for about 400 metres after I left my place one morning and there doesn't seem to be any connection between useage in that identical oils will vary widely on the amount consumed over the same distance and under similar driving conditions.
    I spotted this topic and wondered is there any chance that similar valves (non return variety) might be hidden in these engines as I've never gone looking for them and if so, where are they and can they be removed cleaned up and refitted?

    505 STI - How does the PCV work on ZD engines????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    I've had a long running battle with a BX burning oil; no surprises there as it seems all TZi engines do it, but although I've tried a few things which have improved it, I still can't convince myself that an engine at that mileage needs rings. I haven't compared ring design with other BX engine, but I would have to imagine they'd be similar to other models and every test I've done hasn't shown the symptoms of valve stem seals.
    I only ever caught it blowing smoke once and that was for about 400 metres after I left my place one morning and there doesn't seem to be any connection between useage in that identical oils will vary widely on the amount consumed over the same distance and under similar driving conditions.
    I spotted this topic and wondered is there any chance that similar valves (non return variety) might be hidden in these engines as I've never gone looking for them and if so, where are they and can they be removed cleaned up and refitted?

    505 STI - How does the PCV work on ZD engines????


    Alan S
    Exactly how much oil does it use?

    I assume that the TZi engine is the same as a 205/405 XU9J2 / XU9JA(Z) 8 valve motor, which the book specifies will use (from new) 500ml per 1000kms. The 16 valve does not suffer this problem.

    This means that between 5000km services, the engine will use 2.5 litres of oil, and that's normal!! Sounds to me like a good excuse to check your oil more often.
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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    This is the point; there's no yardstick to it. It might go 1000 klms and barely use any, then over the next 500 klms it might use 2 litres, this is what makes me suspicious.
    We've done compression tests, driven behind it and done all the usual power on/power off tests, driven hard through the gears, cruised at low and high speeds and never the faintest whisp of smoke, then one day, I'm driving up the road and it's like a mosquito repellent fogging machine following me up the road that suddenly stopped and didn't restart again.
    We've tried thick oil, thin, mineral and semi synth as well as one dose of Mobil one and not one skerrick of difference.
    We think we've got it solved as the consumption seems to improve over a period and just as quickly it will start again without warning which is making me think along the lines of a valve.
    I understand the rings are similar in all these engines, so that rules a design fault out and a reason not to start doing "mods" to solve it. This is why I'm thinking a valve or something similar even a hose blocked in the breathing system. Performance of it is absolutely awesome; almost on par with my 16V which is another reason to discount rings and try as I might, I can't get it to do the things a car with dodgy valve stem seals does.
    By comparison, my 16V is running on 0W40 and isn't using a drop. Both have done almost identical mileage.


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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Didn't the XU9J2 engines of approx. '88-89 get recalled due to an oil ring control problem?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Didn't the XU9J2 engines of approx. '88-89 get recalled due to an oil ring control problem?
    Don't know for sure, but I heard that valve stems/stem seals were an issue.

    That could give a sudden onset problem, would it not?

    JohnW

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Didn't the XU9J2 engines of approx. '88-89 get recalled due to an oil ring control problem?
    I don't know about that, but this one is DOM 1992 and registered 1994, so you have to think that this was out of that recall period; by then it should have been rectified and we bought it off the original owner.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    Don't know for sure, but I heard that valve stems/stem seals were an issue.

    That could give a sudden onset problem, would it not?

    JohnW
    This is where this one is such a mystery box John. It was bought from the original owner who had it serviced by the dealer and subsequently a well known service guy in Brisbane. This owner never opened the bonnet, so you would have to think the service people were aware of it but just went ahead and routinely did the services as though nothing was wrong.
    I was aware of the valve stem seal problems and as a result carefully checked before he bought it by doing all the accepted tests for worn/leaky seals such as rolling down hills and hitting the gas at the bottom and leaving it idle for prolonged periods and then revving the motor; in each case, no smoke. When I finish a couple of projects that are hanging around my ears here, (including valve stem seals on an Mi16 engine) I will possibly fit a set of seals then if we haven't found another cause, but at present, I'm looking for a cause as mysterious as the symptoms. I have had other mechanics look at it who have done all the tests for rings and the stem seals and the best I can get is "drop a recon motor in it." I ask what's wrong and they admit they don't know but guess that a new engine would cure it; but I have serious doubts that it would because at the end of the day the new engine would have good compression and performance, no rattles and not blow smoke, exactly like this one. This is why I am wondering about a similar problem to the 505 engine I referred to previously as to me, this is the most logical scenario.



    Alan S
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    I don't know about that, but this one is DOM 1992 and registered 1994, so you have to think that this was out of that recall period; by then it should have been rectified and we bought it off the original owner.



    This is where this one is such a mystery box John. It was bought from the original owner who had it serviced by the dealer and subsequently a well known service guy in Brisbane. This owner never opened the bonnet, so you would have to think the service people were aware of it but just went ahead and routinely did the services as though nothing was wrong.
    I was aware of the valve stem seal problems and as a result carefully checked before he bought it by doing all the accepted tests for worn/leaky seals such as rolling down hills and hitting the gas at the bottom and leaving it idle for prolonged periods and then revving the motor; in each case, no smoke. When I finish a couple of projects that are hanging around my ears here, (including valve stem seals on an Mi16 engine) I will possibly fit a set of seals then if we haven't found another cause, but at present, I'm looking for a cause as mysterious as the symptoms. I have had other mechanics look at it who have done all the tests for rings and the stem seals and the best I can get is "drop a recon motor in it." I ask what's wrong and they admit they don't know but guess that a new engine would cure it; but I have serious doubts that it would because at the end of the day the new engine would have good compression and performance, no rattles and not blow smoke, exactly like this one. This is why I am wondering about a similar problem to the 505 engine I referred to previously as to me, this is the most logical scenario.



    Alan S
    Very strange Alan. Could a ring have gummed up progressively and reached a threshold that reduced oil control I wonder - previous gentle driving for example? Then maybe the old Redex overdose might work, but you can hardly trickle it down the carbie!! Hmm. I'll be very interested to hear the outcome of this one. Our TZi doesn't use much oil at all - I haven't measured it as our daughter usually drives it, but not much gets added between services. It's done about 190,000 km by the way.

    Cheers

    JohnW

  8. #8
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    Very strange Alan. Could a ring have gummed up progressively and reached a threshold that reduced oil control I wonder - previous gentle driving for example? Then maybe the old Redex overdose might work, but you can hardly trickle it down the carbie!! Hmm. I'll be very interested to hear the outcome of this one. Our TZi doesn't use much oil at all - I haven't measured it as our daughter usually drives it, but not much gets added between services. It's done about 190,000 km by the way.

    Cheers

    JohnW
    John,

    As I've mentioned in other threads in the past, we gave it a flushing with brake fluid based on overseas experiences and I must admit I've never seen anything make as much of an improvement on any cars performance. It was suspected that the problem may have been a combination of bore glazing and stuck rings, but again, where is all the smoke?
    It not oly doesn't smoke, but it doesn't smell like an oily engine either. It gets a bit of a "farty" smell much like the old Skylines, the first with the cats used to and there's little doubt that the cat's useless no doubt as a result of the oil that's passed through it over a few years.
    I was hoping someone may have had the entire breathing system out of one of these to answer the question about non return valves and the like or even someone whose had a rocker cover off in case there's something hiding in there that may be causing pressurising.
    I get the same gut feeling about this one I did about an old Ford Consul I had years ago that had a fortune in money and an immeasureable amount of time spent, only to discover the seal on the vacuum wipers was blown and was sucking the contents of the sump straight into the intake, but in that case, unlike this one, we had smoke!!

    Alan S
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    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    Alan, I believe you may be suffering from the "too much knowledge syndrome".
    This is a derivative of "Murphys Law" and affects only those people who know a lot about cars. You know, when the lady next door has a plug lead fall off, she is stumped because that is outside of her car knowledge base, but you would pick it straight away and pop it back on, and she thinks you are a star.

    However, on your OWN car, nothing simple like that ever happens. The car knows your capability and comes up with something that is out of your reach, no matter how much knowledge you have. This is one of those times.

    OK, I know that isn't much help - I just get amused by how often the syndrome appears among my more knowledgeable friends.

    Seriously, one thing to remember is that compression rings and oil control rings work very much independently. I.E. a problem with oil rings may cause oil consumption while the engine runs like a dream. Further to a comment in an above post, I was a service manager in a M.Benz dealership in the 70's, their max tolerance for oil consumption was 1.0 litre per 1000km! Imagine telling a client that putting in a litre every couple of weeks was normal and not covered by warranty! Ridiculous, but MB claimed that up to 1 L/1000km you could pull the engine down and not find any faults because the usage was too low.

    Also, at a Ford dealer I had a customer who claimed his (new) 302 V8 blew clouds of smoke at high RPM. I drove it and could not get the problem to show up. During an extended road test I happened to get into a situation which caused me to really put my foot down to complete an overtaking manouver, I glanced in the mirror and couldn't believe the complete smokescreen billowing out of the back of the car obscuring the car behind. Obviously the owner drove it harder than I thought. Anyway, I pinned it down to one cylinder (plug condition) and removed that side head and that piston assembly. I looked at it closely for a minute or two before I realised it did not have an oil control ring fitted! Just a nice clean, empty ring groove. Put in just the one new oil ring from a broken set and it was perfect.

    I know your problem doesnt involve smoke, but you just never know what you may find. A very small amount of oil per piston stroke can cause a measurably high oil consumption. Personally, I think you might end up putting in a set of rings.

    Have you ever done a cylinder leakage test? I.E. with each cylinder in turn locked at TDC compression stroke, pressurise the cylinder with compressed air and listen at the crankcase breather (or filler cap removed) for amount of leakage past the rings. With the proper tool you can measure the leakage rate, even a good engine has 10%, and I have had oil burners (in fairly low km engines) with a measurement of only 20% - there isn't a big difference between good and bad.

    Hope you don't mind the rave - interesting subject, but not much help I'm afraid.

    Cheers.

  10. #10
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    There has been several people all well experienced done all the tests with all the equipment and all with the same result.
    The schools of thought are that it is a normal consumption which is soon negated by others (like JohnW) who have vehicles with identical engines that don't do it. I don't intend ripping an engine out on the off chance that it may be rings and due to everything checking out (I am aware that oil and compression rings serve two entirely different purposes) as regards mechanical condition, this is why I am curious whether we may have something amiss in the breathing system as this inconsistency in oil consumption and the fixes all over the world has to be seen to be appreciated. It's more academic interest than anything that I want to solve the riddle.
    There was one guy in the UK a while back who had one smoking like a pie cart if it was left idling for 5 minutes. He put brake fluid down the plug holes, left it for a day and then went for a trip convinced he wouldn't pass his MOT to re-register the car. When almost home, the car spluttered and just as it was about to stop, spluttered again back to life and to quote him "turned day into night" on the motorway with the cloud of smoke that erupted out the back. By the time he got home, the smoking had gone and the next day it passed its MOT and hasn't smoked since.
    These are the kinds of stories that keep popping up which is why I'm looking for the mystical, something I usually never do as I find in most cases as you say, the simplest solutions are the ones most likely to be the successful ones. This one defines all logic.


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  11. #11
    twm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    There has been several people all well experienced done all the tests with all the equipment and all with the same result.
    The schools of thought are that it is a normal consumption which is soon negated by others (like JohnW) who have vehicles with identical engines that don't do it. I don't intend ripping an engine out on the off chance that it may be rings and due to everything checking out (I am aware that oil and compression rings serve two entirely different purposes) as regards mechanical condition, this is why I am curious whether we may have something amiss in the breathing system as this inconsistency in oil consumption and the fixes all over the world has to be seen to be appreciated. It's more academic interest than anything that I want to solve the riddle.
    There was one guy in the UK a while back who had one smoking like a pie cart if it was left idling for 5 minutes. He put brake fluid down the plug holes, left it for a day and then went for a trip convinced he wouldn't pass his MOT to re-register the car. When almost home, the car spluttered and just as it was about to stop, spluttered again back to life and to quote him "turned day into night" on the motorway with the cloud of smoke that erupted out the back. By the time he got home, the smoking had gone and the next day it passed its MOT and hasn't smoked since.
    These are the kinds of stories that keep popping up which is why I'm looking for the mystical, something I usually never do as I find in most cases as you say, the simplest solutions are the ones most likely to be the successful ones. This one defines all logic.


    Alan S

    Allmost sounds like rings stuck in the groove and the brake fluid released them somehow.

    If the oil is dissapearing, hate to state the obvious but its going somewhere??

    If it aint on the ground and it aint smokin it must be combusting, so might be a upper cylinder lubricant. I remember hearing of the Golf Diesels that were getting amazing MPG but using oil like it was going out of fashion. They were actually scavenging oil from the sump and combusting it along with the diesel.

    SO if it is not causing any problems my guess is that it might assist in engine logevity.

    Of course I do not have the wealth of knowledge that you guys have but its just my worth, and will probably be corrected in due course.

    Respectfully


    Terry
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    I dont know how this car is driven, but have you thought of glazed bores.

    BP had/have a deglazing oil, which was trickled through the carby with the engine running, the bodgy brothers used to use Bon Ami instead.

    I was in NG in the 70's, and it used to happen a lot, I suspect from all the town work they did ( no where else to go ). The engines would only use oil under certain circumstances. Maybe the engine oils now are good enough that this can't happen.

    Terry

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twm
    Allmost sounds like rings stuck in the groove and the brake fluid released them somehow.

    If the oil is dissapearing, hate to state the obvious but its going somewhere??

    If it aint on the ground and it aint smokin it must be combusting, so might be a upper cylinder lubricant. I remember hearing of the Golf Diesels that were getting amazing MPG but using oil like it was going out of fashion. They were actually scavenging oil from the sump and combusting it along with the diesel.

    SO if it is not causing any problems my guess is that it might assist in engine logevity.

    Of course I do not have the wealth of knowledge that you guys have but its just my worth, and will probably be corrected in due course.

    Respectfully
    Brake fluid is highly corrosive. I reckon it'll be causing surface rust over the bores (which is abrasive) so it re-seats the rings when you start the motor (to a certain extent).

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    We thought of bore glazing and the brake fluid was supposedly a method used overseas to both decarbonise the engine (should have seen how clean the plugs came out) and deglaze the bore.
    I doubt glazing would be a problem with these as every one I've ever seen the head off have still had hone marks up the bore; I think they make the liners out of diamonds.
    When (if) I ever get the time to finish this Mi16, I might embark on a set of valve stem seals seeing as how we've got the gear here to do it without removing the head, but having seen the effect that dodgy ones had on the Mi, it's a whole different set of circumstances but for 20 bux and a bit of time, it has to be worthy of the effort and if it works, I'll post the results. In between times, I'll still keep looking for external causes.
    Incidentally, different drivers, driving styles and conditions, don't seem to have any bearing on the consumption either.

    Alan S
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    We thought of bore glazing and the brake fluid was supposedly a method used overseas to both decarbonise the engine (should have seen how clean the plugs came out) and deglaze the bore.
    I doubt glazing would be a problem with these as every one I've ever seen the head off have still had hone marks up the bore; I think they make the liners out of diamonds.
    When (if) I ever get the time to finish this Mi16, I might embark on a set of valve stem seals seeing as how we've got the gear here to do it without removing the head, but having seen the effect that dodgy ones had on the Mi, it's a whole different set of circumstances but for 20 bux and a bit of time, it has to be worthy of the effort and if it works, I'll post the results. In between times, I'll still keep looking for external causes.
    Incidentally, different drivers, driving styles and conditions, don't seem to have any bearing on the consumption either.

    Alan S
    A Poogoe I hope it's a 160hp Mi16 and your wrecking it to put the motor into a BX Bugger it... Lets put it's motor into an AX and show those 205 girlies how it's done

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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Haha Have you worked on an AX shane?? they are a PITA even with the 1.4L!!

    Dave


  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    Haha Have you worked on an AX shane?? they are a PITA even with the 1.4L!!

    Dave
    It's been done before ... Apparantly the a suicide machine ... Far to much power for such a light weight little car What's an AX weigh ??? 700kgs ???

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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    yeah i think 730 kilos rings a bell. Its been done with saxo VTS engines before - 1.6L 16V. Probably a better match for the Ax than the 1.9L.

    Dave


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    I've had a long running battle with a BX burning oil; no surprises there as it seems all TZi engines do it, but although I've tried a few things which have improved it, I still can't convince myself that an engine at that mileage needs rings. I haven't compared ring design with other BX engine, but I would have to imagine they'd be similar to other models and every test I've done hasn't shown the symptoms of valve stem seals.
    I only ever caught it blowing smoke once
    ************************************
    is there any chance that similar valves (non return variety) might be hidden in these engines as I've never gone looking for them and if so, where are they and can they be removed cleaned up and refitted?
    Alan S
    Allan
    I have been following the recent thread about the 'hardness' of doing a BX19 cambelt - and saw Shane's pictures on how to do it.

    What caught my eye was the rocker cover 'extrusion' with the hoses going out of it. next to the screwdriver handle. I have never had a BX so I aint seen this before, but it looks suspiciously like the same thing on a 505 STI/GTI rocker covers.

    Is it made of tin & part of the cover?? Is it a 'non-servicable' component? Is it the only way a BX engine breathes?

    If it isn't - can I suggest you have a real hard look at it from underneath.

    On the 505s there are 4 small holes in plates in this tower & they block up. Oil is then pressured past the the oil seals, especially the camshft seal. I reckon this is why the STIs are so dirty around the front of the motors and why they break belts.

    So many projects - so little time.

  20. #20
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    That hose fits into/comes out of the filler cap. That cap has that steel shavings looking crap in it which was a bit grotty so was removed in case it was blocked.
    It leads as you can see into the intake and the bottom end is Teed into the filler hose just before it enters the lower section of the block. To the best of my knowledge, both ends are open with no valves, filters etc fitted there, but I will take a closer look. Thanks for the thought.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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