head off enquiries???????
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Default head off enquiries???????

    we got the head off the gti without too much drama like liners moving etc.
    here is a few pictures of the head off.
    is there supposed to be all that gunk between the liners and the block?
    how to get it out?
    i supose we use the right stuff gasket stuff for all the gaskets that dont have the blue line of stuff on them.
    here is the piccies,looks like a lot of solidified coolant to me or hard water depositis between the liners and block,is this a water jacket were the water cool around the pistons??
    al will also post a few questions relating to these pictures.-BAZZ

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    couple more.in the second picture there seems to be a slight recess in the top of the lip on the bottom edge of the piccy[hope my explanation is ok]
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails head off enquiries???????-head-7.jpg   head off enquiries???????-head-8.jpg  
    Last edited by bazgti; 11th September 2005 at 06:07 PM.

  3. #3
    al
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    Ummm... questions....

    Is the amount of crap between the liners and the block likely to indicate extensive other hidden problems?

    And can i just scrape it out and wash/vacumn it out?
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Woah the inside of that block does not look healthy!!!!

    It should look like the pic below and not have any deposits in the water gallery, if you put that together as is it probably won't cool properly, will continue corroding and all that gunk is going to block up the cooling system resulting in another gasket and or head/block. I don't know if you can clean that up without stripping the engine further. Someone else may be able to advise. I would definately want to get a new radiator too after looking at the state of the water galleries.

    Dave


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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    if you look at the picture of the gasket it looks like it failed 2/3 where they meet .-BAZZ

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    That doesnt look so hot mate... I would be more worried about what appears to be rust on the bores from water sitting on pistons 2 and 3 for a while. Doesnt do wonders for ring sealing with rust pitting of the cylinder wall. Soak liberally in WD40 and clean up as best you can.

    As for stuff in the water jacket, nothing to be done until its back together and running - then run a coolant flusher through it.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    Ummm... questions....

    Is the amount of crap between the liners and the block likely to indicate extensive other hidden problems?

    And can i just scrape it out and wash/vacumn it out?
    Al as you can see above that crap is not normal and even our engine with 300000 k's on it looks just like my GT blockin the pic above. No buildup at all in the water galleries. I'm not sure what else to advise but its definately not normal buildup. Hopefully someone can give you some ideas on how to clean it up and whether it is likely to cause other issues.

    Dave


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    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    That doesnt look so hot mate... I would be more worried about what appears to be rust on the bores from water sitting on pistons 2 and 3 for a while. Doesnt do wonders for ring sealing with rust pitting of the cylinder wall. Soak liberally in WD40 and clean up as best you can.

    As for stuff in the water jacket, nothing to be done until its back together and running - then run a coolant flusher through it.
    Yeah i'd be somewhat worried about how the compression will be after being a non runner for a year.

    Dave


  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    WOW


    Thats the worst looking block i've seen for many days....i'd be really scared putting that back together. I really think your setting yourself up for trouble Al.


    Cheers

    Ben
    1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    if it were me i would pull it down further and do it all properly

    i would also take the heater matrix to get done at the same time as the radiator or replace the heater matrix as it will be full of gunja as well

    looks like it hasn't had regular coolant changes in its life
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    Default Liner skew wiff

    In the head 5 JPG it looks like one liner is slightly below the other, and I guess that if this is so, you will never get a good seal with a new Head gasket, looks to me like candidate for full strip, chemical clean the block and either refit with new seals (iffy) or new liners pistons,rings and seals.

    Latter option is much better IMHO and while you are at it check out the crankshaft ovality/taper and condition and fit of main bearings etc.

    Another quickie option would be to drop in an o.k. s/hand motor. if money is tight.

    If you really like the car and it is worth keeping, then spend the money and rebuild the original engine.

    Ken

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Kenfuego has hit the nail on the head, Al this is getting to the stage where you have to

    a) just completely strip and rebuild - and by the looks of it this engine is definately not in good condition and would need the works in a rebuild, you could not do a quick and easy (and cheap) job on it.
    or

    b) Find a 2nd hand runner and throw it in. I think in your case this is the best option as eventually you will want more power and get an mi16 or something.

    Hopefully the suspension is in better nick.

    Dave


  13. #13
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    That whiteish deposit is the kind of residue you usually find in an engine that's been OD'd on stop leak of some description so that will wash out with "muckout" or similar.

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/att...achmentid=5844

    Looking down those pots, I'd agree, it seems the donk will have to come out.
    I know a guy who has a Pug engine complete he possibly would sell but I can't tell you how much he wants or how or at what price it would cost to get it down there so depending on price, a local wrecker may be the option.

    I'd suggest before you hit the panic button, you have a talk with your engine guy and get a price off him to give it the once over and then do a price comparison between that and any used engines you might find.

    The sleeves once out, can be inspected at the base and new seals installed and there's all the worry of protrusion or no protrusion solved.

    Once out of the car, the actual engine rebuild isn't a major operation labourwise due to it being a wet sleeve motor.

    Alan S
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    al,

    I think your going to have to bite the bullet.......do a rebuild.....then you will know exactly what you have got and it will be good for many years to come!

    A set of pistons and sleeves wont set you back that much!!

    Cheers

    Ben
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    2000 Peugeot 306 XSI
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  15. #15
    al
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    Thanks so much guys... As soon as i saw the amount of crap blocking the waterways in the gasket i was pretty worried... There is also what appears to be some corrosion in front of cylinder 2 which was big enough for me to see it straight away... I knew that there were dramas with the coolant changes when i had what appeared to be half of tasmania come out of the radiator... I guess this isn't really that suprising...

    As much as i would like to do a rebuild, honestly i can't be bothered rebuilding this engine. I never planned on keeping the 8 valver for long anyway, so i don't want the stress of stripping it down.

    Baz has told me that one of the melb guys has a running engine that he would sell cheap, so perhaps this is the best idea? If i can buy some time with that it will give me an opportunity to get a cooking 16 valver built...

    Thanks again guys... This is kinda depressing, but the rest of the car is good. It is extremely straight, and has new peugeot driveshafts, hoses and brank spanking tyres... While this is a bit of a bitch, i'm not giving up this easily...

    If anyone is interested, i have the replacement head which i bought in the garage. This has new stem seals and has been cleaned skimmed - if anyone is interested there will be an ad up shortly...
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  16. #16
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Word to the wise/voice of experience.

    Don't sell anything until you have it running................been there, done that, got the "T" shirt.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    Word to the wise/voice of experience.

    Don't sell anything until you have it running................been there, done that, got the "T" shirt.


    Alan S
    I'll raise that to don't sell anything...ever Its great to know you have a spare everything!!!!
    But then again thats why our gardens are full of old cits and pugs hey Alan

    Dave


  18. #18
    al
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    Word to the wise/voice of experience.

    Don't sell anything until you have it running................been there, done that, got the "T" shirt.


    Alan S
    How come Alan? Apparently the engine is still being used in the sellers car. I think it is making way for a beastly Mi16 on quads...
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  19. #19
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    Default Strip down clean and inspect.

    Al

    Whatever you decide, now you have got the motor half stripped, I would pull it right down and clean and strip everything, then measure and inspect what you have, everything may be recoverable, though like you I have doubts by the condition of the engine.

    I have seen some stop gap rebuilds in my lifetime, that defy all the odds and run forever, you just can't break them.

    You just have to weigh everything up. One of the things working against "stop gap" rebuilds today is the high cost of seals, gaskets, quality sealing compounds etc, if you went that way you would try to keep all these costs down as much as possible using good secondhand parts.

    We used to spray old headgaskets both sides with "silverfrost" aluminium paint to seal them down, but don't think that would work that well on a wet sleeve motor - new seals to keep the pots proud of the block would be essential and I would not try and reuse that old gasket

    The other thing used to "rejuvenate" old motors was to put in a single set of segmented cord style rings properly installed in place of the plain compression rings to stop excessive blowby. This is the el cheapo of all elcheapo engine resto's and will buy you 12 months running time - You will never be satisfied with it but you may get away with it

    Strip measure inspect - cost out what is required - compare with running motor replacement cost, make up your mind and go for it.

    Ken

  20. #20
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    you could always pull the pots out and check the liners and then just get a set of rings from aus precision and throw in there

    shouldn't cost too much and you will be on your way again

    while you have the pots out clean everything out

    the engine has to come out anyway
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  21. #21
    al
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    I think that with that engine i will be fighting against the odds... plus, i don't want my first mechanical attempt to fail, so i think i will go for another engine... I will probably keep this and pull it apart further to learn about how these things work, but i don't want the stress of making it go...

    Thanks again for all the advice you gave me - i hope it will to valuable to other afers wanting to attempt the procedure.
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Think it's time to change your sig. al:


    205 GTI (needs headjob) -> 205 GTI (needs engine)



    I saw a diesel xu in the trader the other week, just think of the torque!!!

    Dave


  23. #23
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    How come Alan? Apparently the engine is still being used in the sellers car. I think it is making way for a beastly Mi16 on quads...
    You've got two options; learn by others mistakes or learn by your own.

    Lost count of the times I've thought I didn't need something before the job was finished, then when it was almost complete discovered something wasn't as I thought it was or had a mishap and needed the part I'd sold off or a portion of it.

    Just thought I'd mention it as you'll find others experiences always comes cheaper than you own.
    Get involved in a bit of competition and you also soon learn tricks like the ones I've mentioned earlier, that you don't take risks, and perfection is almost good enough.

    Alan S
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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    I think that with that engine i will be fighting against the odds... plus, i don't want my first mechanical attempt to fail, so i think i will go for another engine... I will probably keep this and pull it apart further to learn about how these things work, but i don't want the stress of making it go...

    Thanks again for all the advice you gave me - i hope it will to valuable to other afers wanting to attempt the procedure.
    Could this be the scenario for that engine?
    Liner drops slightly for whatever reason - perhaps it was boiled - then the head gasket starts to weep water into the cylinder and across to the next piston. The owner starts to put more & more radiator 'stop leak' into it until it fixes it (or stops forever).
    If it was me I would start with another engine. Try and buy a running one so you can see&hear it going. (I bought an engine stethascope from United Tools in Sth Melbourne for about $20 - amazing what you can hear by using it).

    As the others have said, check the rest of the cooling system in case it was the radiator &/or the heater core that first caused it to boil and stated the whole problem.

    If you dont get a running engine but source an engine to rebuild (say as a donation) get yourself an engine stand so you can easily work on it at a good height and spin it when you need. They dont cost too much and make tinkering a heap easier.

    Good luck with it. Your problem reminded me how I started on engines many many moons ago.
    So many projects - so little time.

  25. #25
    al
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    Quote Originally Posted by 604 tragic
    Your problem reminded me how I started on engines many many moons ago.
    I am getting really interested in it, but i am tentative as i basically have no idea what i am doing... It is certainly more fun than the three uni essays that are due this week - they have been put very low on the list of priorities...

    And alan, i was just offered a drive of the potential replacement engine so hopefully i won't need the spare heads i have at the moment!
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