MI16 Head on a S16
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  1. #1
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    Default MI16 Head on a S16

    HI,

    Just wondering if the MI16 head will fit a N3 306 S16... i think that the head bolts would be cool, just wondering about the manifolds...

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    I think Peter has covered this before, might be worth a search or a PM.

    Cheers,

    Dave


  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    1.9L Mi16 or 2.0L Mi16?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Kyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    1.9L Mi16 or 2.0L Mi16?
    I was going to say... your engine already has a 2.0 mi16 head on it

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle
    I was going to say... your engine already has a 2.0 mi16 head on it
    No, it has a 1.9L head (or soon will). The 2.0L head is still under development.

    whilst the two heads are very similar, there are issues with headbolts:

    1.9L head on 2.0L block - use nine 2.0L M12 headbolts and one 1.9L diesel M12 bolt.

    also the inlet manifold location studs are slightly different. So best to use 1.9L inlet and exhaust manifolds.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Kyle's Avatar
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    I was directing that comment to drtdvl about the 2.0mi16 head peter

  7. #7
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    So i need to look for a 2lt MI16 head for it? as the 1.9 will not fit?

    i've got 2 heads offered to me, just need to see if they are suitable and what litreage they are.

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Kyle's Avatar
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    What I am saying is your head is already a 2.0l mi16 dude

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Is there something wrong with your S16's head??? If not then there is no point. As Kyle has said the head on the S16 is the same one used on the 2.0L Mi16... the two cars share pretty much the same motor!

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  10. #10
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    i want a second head so i can mod'd it without having my car off the road as it's my daily driver...

    looking to recut the seat for oversized valves, port, plane and polish the head, and see what flowbench figures i can get from it and what velocity i can get from it...

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    These heads are bloody good already though. All you need to do is go for a bigger inlet cam, and look at some throttle bodies and an ecu. Why pull your engine apart if its in good nick??

    If you wan't to know what can be done to the head though ask peter, he has some nice flow graphs already done to show what difference has been achieved with os valves compared to standard.

    Dave


  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! WRCPUG's Avatar
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    What CFM figures does a Mi16 or Gti6 head produce on a flow bench?
    Just curious
    PEUGEOT 306 GTi6 (1997-1999 HYBRID)
    105.4kw (141HP) ATW
    2:09 Phillip Island (Toyo Street Tyres)

    2001 YAMAHA YZF-R6
    119HP

    1993 MITSUBISHI 3000GT Twin Turbo
    300BHP
    STOCK-14.006 @97.4mph HEATHCOTE
    STOCK-1:15 CALDER Long Circuit (Stock Street Tyres + Stock Pads :banghead )
    (For Sale)

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRCPUG
    What CFM figures does a Mi16 or Gti6 head produce on a flow bench?
    Just curious
    Fairly incrediable really. Why would you bother with big valves on a street engine? The best money you could spend on an XU10J4 is a 1mm shave off the block.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails MI16 Head on a S16-mi16flowchart.jpg  

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! WRCPUG's Avatar
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    Thanks Peter
    So whats the maximum it can flow? Im not too sure how to read that chart.(i dont know much about flow dynamics ect) Whats the lift mean??

    Reasom i ask is i was having a chat with a mate the other day and he was telling me the RB26 GTR head flows over 300cfm or something like that while the 2JZGTE head was like 260 or so.
    Just curious as to what a lil 4 cylinder head would produce and how does that XU head compare to other high performance N/A 4 cylinders.
    PEUGEOT 306 GTi6 (1997-1999 HYBRID)
    105.4kw (141HP) ATW
    2:09 Phillip Island (Toyo Street Tyres)

    2001 YAMAHA YZF-R6
    119HP

    1993 MITSUBISHI 3000GT Twin Turbo
    300BHP
    STOCK-14.006 @97.4mph HEATHCOTE
    STOCK-1:15 CALDER Long Circuit (Stock Street Tyres + Stock Pads :banghead )
    (For Sale)

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    As can be seen from the chart, maximum flow with a std. inlet is approx. 250cfm, and just under 300cfm with the larger inlet. So in std. form they out flow most modified 4 cyl. heads.

    The red line is maximum lift of a std. camshaft. So to get the most out of bigger inlets you really need more lift, >0.430".

    The exhaust is the really interesting bit. It outflows the latest 5.7 Chev exhaust.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! WRCPUG's Avatar
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    Mmm i see now. And to flow say 300cfm would it be a mild sort of cam or very extreme. Would it dramatically lower your low rpm torque spread? would it still be very streetable? What kind of gains would you expect top end?
    PEUGEOT 306 GTi6 (1997-1999 HYBRID)
    105.4kw (141HP) ATW
    2:09 Phillip Island (Toyo Street Tyres)

    2001 YAMAHA YZF-R6
    119HP

    1993 MITSUBISHI 3000GT Twin Turbo
    300BHP
    STOCK-14.006 @97.4mph HEATHCOTE
    STOCK-1:15 CALDER Long Circuit (Stock Street Tyres + Stock Pads :banghead )
    (For Sale)

  17. #17
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    I"m planning to use the car as a race car, and buy a 205 gti as a daily driver but until i get to that point i'm using the 306 as a daily driver. I have the resources at work to do everything humanly possible to a head (even model and get a new one cast).

    Not having a car isn't a viable option as i travel 70km a day to get to and from work.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    fair enough did the same with my morrie 1100 though I didn't race it!! its amazing what a difference increasing the port size to about double the original, and putting oversize valves in makes to one of those

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  19. #19
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    Peter: so you'd shave the block to increase the compression ratio and leave the cc rating alone right?

    We have a engine shop out back, so i'm sure i could get them to do it for me... when the time comes to rebuild the engine...

    Also, am i right in thinking that i can fit 38.6 mm valves... i can't remember where i heard that from (i was going to see what i can fit before i ordered them)....

    We have a flowbench at work so i can get all the flow figures for everyone as the project progresses once i get a head.

    The standard vtec flows about 250 with the drag guys topping them out about 300 - 310....

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! WRCPUG's Avatar
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    What VTEC head? B16A? B18? H22A?
    I heard the B16 head is better flowing than the B18 head so alot of them make the "frankenstein motor" which is a B16 head on a B18 block.

    Then you have the B18 Type R motor which is hand built. Do you know what that puts out CFM?
    PEUGEOT 306 GTi6 (1997-1999 HYBRID)
    105.4kw (141HP) ATW
    2:09 Phillip Island (Toyo Street Tyres)

    2001 YAMAHA YZF-R6
    119HP

    1993 MITSUBISHI 3000GT Twin Turbo
    300BHP
    STOCK-14.006 @97.4mph HEATHCOTE
    STOCK-1:15 CALDER Long Circuit (Stock Street Tyres + Stock Pads :banghead )
    (For Sale)

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRCPUG
    Mmm i see now. And to flow say 300cfm would it be a mild sort of cam or very extreme. Would it dramatically lower your low rpm torque spread? would it still be very streetable? What kind of gains would you expect top end?
    To open the valve past 0.450" you'd require a longer duration grind, otherwise the acceleration rate on the small Mi16 base circle would become excessive, leading to lobe/bucket failure. It wouldn't need to be a huge grind, but it would definitely loose some bottom end torque. There's so many variables there however, it's impossible to suggest numbers.

    It all becomes a viscous circle however. As the RPM power range goes up, so does the risk of valve float with hydraulic lifters. So if you're planing on making new larger valves, you should also be considering single collet grooves and solid lifters. For sustained high RPM, 7500 should be considered a limit for the std. lifters. It's possible to buy special hydraulic lifters that will last to 7800 from QEP in the UK. But if you're buying new lifters then why not buy solids?

    The XU10J4 bock needs to be shaved to fix the squish height. The piston is 0.040" down the block, add 0.056" of head gasket and you have a fairly tame result. In my opinion, that's the principle reason why they feel so doughy, even though they have 10.4:1. A 0.040" skim will increase the CR to approx. 11.2:1.

    The biggest valves you can fit is 36.5mm, but it really doesn't matter on the exact size. For instance, the Longman engines use 35.5mm yet make 300hp. The increase in CFM is a result of the improved 3 angle seat which can be cut by using a slightly bigger valve. The std. seat is less than ideal. The biggest goal in improving one of these heads is to improve the flow over ALL lifts. Notice in the graph how the smaller inlet outflows the bigger inlet under 0.150". It takes considerable experience to make that happen.

    To be honest, you can make a 200-210hp high torque monster with the std. head, block as described and throttle bodies. Unless you're prepared to put your hand deep into the pocket, stay under 7500 and fit a dry sump.

    V-Tec Honda Flow figures:
    http://www.protopline.com/v-tec.htm
    Last edited by PeterT; 12th September 2005 at 07:06 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    To be honest, you can make a 200-210hp high torque monster with the std. head, block as described and throttle bodies. Unless you're prepared to put your hand deep into the pocket, stay under 7500 and fit a dry sump.
    My 16V is holding together at the moment, but when it needs a rebuild, this is exactly what I would be doing; either with 180hp and standard ecu or 200hp with an aftermarket ecu. The only internal work needed is some nice 3 angle seats, and a block/liner shave. Then its all bolt on items like throttle bodies, cam and ecu. So simple.
    I think I saw Mattsav mention that those good hydraulic lifters were just Xsara VTS/or pug equiv GTi6? lifters.

    Don't make it more complicated than it has to be.

    Dave


  23. #23
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    Thanks for that Peter, i am really looking for 275+ N/A out of it, so ya...

    i would be happy with 250, but i want 275... I've got a bunch of very good contacts so i should be able to get most things done at a very good price, and all the head work i can do at work so there would be no charge.

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRTDVL
    Thanks for that Peter, i am really looking for 275+ N/A out of it, so ya...
    Your going to need a hell of a bottom end and quite frequent rebuilds!!!

    Definately keep us informed about the build progress when you get around to it.


    Dave


  25. #25
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRTDVL
    i am really looking for 275+ N/A out of it, so ya...
    You'll definitely need to spin it past 8000 then.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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