High output XN motor
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  1. #1
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    Default High output XN motor

    Going through old posts in search of power, I read the following from Dave McBean who is aptly described as a guru:

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    "Having said all this, these are my future plans for a hot one of these engines:

    -block bored and fitted with pressed in modified Citroen Cx liners, liners bored to 93.5mm to fit Ford 6 cylinder pistosn (with 1mm shaved from top to give 38mm compression height) to give 2225cc
    -TI head with 44.5mm inlet valves and 37.5mm exhausts
    -combustions chambers welded to raise compression and give squish areas
    -long intake runners with Quad 50mm injection throttle bodies
    -Wade 140 cam

    I think 160-175hp and 205-225Nm of torque is possible, this way, and cheaper than you may think (providing you build the computer yourself, and the throttle bodies, and do the headwork yourself, all of which I plan to do)...."

    Does anyone know if this engine or a similar one was ever built? I am especially interested in the 2225 cc aspect. We sent a very tired XN2 to the machine shop and it is looking for a heroic future as a rally car powerplant. A 504 with 150 hp is what I am after, but will gladly accept more. I am limited by the rules to either carburators or the Kugelfischer and I think Dave is talking EFI, but the block itself is of great interest to me.


    Thanos
    Last edited by Thanos; 3rd September 2005 at 06:28 AM.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Going through old posts in search of power, I read the following from Dave McBean who is aptly described as a guru:

    "Having said all this, these are my future plans for a hot one of these engines:

    -block bored and fitted with pressed in modified Citroen Cx liners, liners bored to 93.5mm to fit Ford 6 cylinder pistosn (with 1mm shaved from top to give 38mm compression height) to give 2225cc
    -TI head with 44.5mm inlet valves and 37.5mm exhausts
    -combustions chambers welded to raise compression and give squish areas
    -long intake runners with Quad 50mm injection throttle bodies
    -Wade 140 cam

    I think 160-175hp and 205-225Nm of torque is possible, this way, and cheaper than you may think (providing you build the computer yourself, and the throttle bodies, and do the headwork yourself, all of which I plan to do)...."

    Does anyone know if this engine or a similar one was ever built? I am especially interested in the 2225 cc aspect. We sent a very tired XN2 to the machine shop and it is looking for a heroic future as a rally car powerplant. A 504 with 150 hp is what I am after, but will gladly accept more. I am limited by the rules to either carburators or the Kugelfischer and I think Dave is talking EFI, but the block itself is of great interest to me.


    Thanos
    There's only one way to find out Thanos! If EFi is not permitted, does that mean that twin 45mm Webers would be? You might sacrifice some torque, but absolute power would probably be very close to the EFi'd engine.
    With all of these mods, I think you'd be unlucky not to surpass your target of 150hp.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    There's only one way to find out Thanos! If EFi is not permitted, does that mean that twin 45mm Webers would be? You might sacrifice some torque, but absolute power would probably be very close to the EFi'd engine.
    With all of these mods, I think you'd be unlucky not to surpass your target of 150hp.
    The plan calls for twin 45mm (or maybe 40mm) Weber DCOE sidedrafts, flow improved head, 30 70 or a little wilder cam, 2 mm bump on I and E valves, light flywheel, 4-2-1 extractors and 2.25 inch free-flow exhaust and as much displacement as I can squeeze out of the block.

    I suspect that "only one way to find out" means to go ahead and try it. I have no choice but to do that (more on that later), but I like to gather as much background information as possible before jumping in, rather than keep rediscovering the wheel.

    This is an important project to me. I called the director of the organization that oversees classic racing here in Greece to request the latest FIA rules and detailed homologation lists. He and I are about the same age and background (graying of beard, suddenly need 60 cm arms to read the paper) and he sort of chuckled about my choice of car. He said the 504 is too heavy, too weak and not competitive in its category. *If there are ten Escort RS's and five 911's in the field the best you can hope for is sixteenth place". I told him he was probably right and left it at that. And maybe he is, but THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT. In the thread describing his target engine McBean was told that an SR20DET would produce the same output with less effort and he replied "Agreed. But maybe we just want to do, what we want to do". So I can do the power to weight math for the 911 and the Escort, but racing in a 504 is what I want to do. I am not childishly determined to prove him wrong (actually, I am), but I drive Peugeots and do so with pride. So fellow Froggers, pitch in with your knowledge (thanks for the e-mail, Ray), the plan is to take no prisoners.

    Thanos

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Spot on Thanos. Try it and see what result you get. The mods you listed are pretty extensive, so I'd really would be surprised if it wasn't an impressive performer. The figures you're expecting seem realistic, especially considering the extra capacity.

    I'm guessing it would be pretty 'cammy' in order to get that much power, but the noise would be addictive. How much compression can the XN handle without stronger internals though?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max

    I'm guessing it would be pretty 'cammy' in order to get that much power, but the noise would be addictive. How much compression can the XN handle without stronger internals though?
    I guess I will find out as soon as I get it built and have a go at it! Can't build it and baby it, waste of time and money. Then again so is building a fragile rally engine, hence the research.

    Thanos

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Going through old posts in search of power, I read the following from Dave McBean who is aptly described as a guru:

    "Having said all this, these are my future plans for a hot one of these engines:

    -block bored and fitted with pressed in modified Citroen Cx liners, liners bored to 93.5mm to fit Ford 6 cylinder pistosn (with 1mm shaved from top to give 38mm compression height) to give 2225cc
    -TI head with 44.5mm inlet valves and 37.5mm exhausts
    -combustions chambers welded to raise compression and give squish areas
    -long intake runners with Quad 50mm injection throttle bodies
    -Wade 140 cam

    I think 160-175hp and 205-225Nm of torque is possible, this way, and cheaper than you may think (providing you build the computer yourself, and the throttle bodies, and do the headwork yourself, all of which I plan to do)...."

    Does anyone know if this engine or a similar one was ever built? I am especially interested in the 2225 cc aspect. We sent a very tired XN2 to the machine shop and it is looking for a heroic future as a rally car powerplant. A 504 with 150 hp is what I am after, but will gladly accept more. I am limited by the rules to either carburators or the Kugelfischer and I think Dave is talking EFI, but the block itself is of great interest to me.


    Thanos

    Hi Thanos,
    Dave never built this engine but a friend of mine has had experience with the welded chambers and has an excellent cam grind sorted out.
    Graham

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    without any major mods yuo can use toyota pistons as well

    you will need to skim them though as they will bump the CR up to around 14:1 from memory so it gives you plenty of scope to have the CR where you want it basically

    it won't increase the size of the engine though

    running a good CR though will help a good cam work well though

    the only problem with these pistons and you can probably get around it now with better rings is they can blow clouds of smoke at 5k rpm and over

    i have seen this conversion done and the car the engine was in went very very well, in fact for a NA 4cyl XN powered pug it would have to have been one of the hardest going pugs i had ever been in
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Hi Thanos,
    Dave never built this engine but a friend of mine has had experience with the welded chambers and has an excellent cam grind sorted out.
    Graham
    Thank you, Graham, it would be great if I can get specifics on the chambers and buy a cam from him or get the grind parameters. I would really appreciate it if you could post or pm his contact info or have him e-mail me if he prefers that.

    This whole thing is beginning to take shape, I popped out of bed this morning after three hours of sleep thinking about it!

    Thanos

  9. #9
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    Thank you for the information, Rambo

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    without any major mods yuo can use toyota pistons as well

    the only problem with these pistons and you can probably get around it now with better rings is they can blow clouds of smoke at 5k rpm and over
    At what CR do they do that? I like to spend most of the time at 4000 and as high up as possible, so this could be a problem.

    QUOTE=i have seen this conversion done and the car the engine was in went very very well, in fact for a NA 4cyl XN powered pug it would have to have been one of the hardest going pugs i had ever been in[/QUOTE]

    Do you have any other information on that pug? CR, cam, carbs etc, and most importantly, could it stand the abuse?

    I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO HELP MAKE IT HAPPEN!

  10. #10
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    the engine was in a 203

    it was run hard pretty much all the time

    bear in mind that this engine was built quite a while ago and technology has improved somewhat now so i'd say that a good set if rings will do the job no problem at all

    as for the specifics of that engine i will try to find out for you but from memory it was running around 10 or 11:1CR
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Now that's what I call a sleeper Rambo!

    How hard would you have to rev the XN motor to get above the 150hp mark, assuming it had the right cam and compression?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max

    How hard would you have to rev the XN motor to get above the 150hp mark, assuming it had the right cam and compression?
    Let's see, I am looking at the dyno chart from my 106 Rallye 16v 1600 cc, with EFI, nearly 300 degree cam, dyno tune, 230 psi compression, 168 hp and it gets 150 hp at 5980 rpms so a 2000 cc XN. with 8v, 270? degree cam, 185 psi cylinder compression at most, with tuned QTB and twin 40 DCOE's.. click, click, tap, tap, equals... oh, NO! my best guess is no less than 7000 rpms. I think we need more displacement.

    Thanos

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    In my shed here I have an XN block which has custom sleeves in it and Magna 2.3 pistons. The motor also has a lightened and stroked crank

    <FONT color=black><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[img] /><o:p></o:p></FONT></P><P style=[/img]I've got the copper head gasket that goes with it as well.<o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>
    Only problem is it has 1 split sleeve....<o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>
    This motor was created by Alan Robertson *some of you will remember him* That head and carbies I sold you, Graham came off that engine!
    <o:p></o:p>

    Cheers<o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>

    Ben<o:p></o:p>
    1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16
    1990 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo Wagon
    2000 Peugeot 306 XSI
    1973 Peugeot 504 GL





  14. #14
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    The displacement will give torque too, which I think you mentioned earlier. In a lightened 504, this would really move along.

    The Peugeot factory 504 rally cars were only about 140 - 150hp weren't they? I'm told by those a little more 'experienced' than I that they enjoyed success on the rally circuits of the 70's.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug_405_Mi16
    In my shed here I have an XN block which has custom sleeves in it and Magna 2.3 pistons. The motor also has a lightened and stroked crank

    <FONT color=black><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[img] /><o:p></o:p></FONT></P><P style=[/img]I've got the copper head gasket that goes with it as well.<o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>
    Only problem is it has 1 split sleeve....<o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>
    This motor was created by Alan Robertson *some of you will remember him* That head and carbies I sold you, Graham came off that engine!
    <o:p></o:p>

    Cheers<o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>

    Ben<o:p></o:p>
    Are replacement sleeves available? What was the actual displacement? Any idea what power that engine made when it was in good tune? What caused ONE sleeve to split?

    What else do you have in that shed?

    Thanos

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Cheeky bugga Thanos.

    ed ge

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    The displacement will give torque too, which I think you mentioned earlier. In a lightened 504, this would really move along.

    The Peugeot factory 504 rally cars were only about 140 - 150hp weren't they? I'm told by those a little more 'experienced' than I that they enjoyed success on the rally circuits of the 70's.
    150 sounds like a very ambitious number, did they even have electronic injection? Even if the number is true that means no low end torque and an engine that falls into a coma below 5000 rpm's. I COULD believe 135 because I am gullible, but 150? The South African 504 rally coupe prepared in 1998 in textbook fashion with the allowed updated modifications gave 99 at the wheel and I would consider that figure to be near the upper limit.

    Thanos

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Cheeky bugga Thanos.

    ed ge
    What do you mean ed ge? No matter, I meant no disrespect, language barrier I guess. (My native language is Greek).

    Thanos

  19. #19
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    magna 2.3 or 2.6 ?

    the liner may have split bieng machine out too much and becoming too thin

    volvo liners which are 91mm will end up with around 60thou or less wall thickness at the base if they are machined to fit into a 604 block which has 88mm bore

    not a very good scenario

    now then if volvo/604 liners are the same height as the 504 ones then maybe you can machine the block out to fit the larger liners in and use the sigma/magna piston in them

    someone have a 504 liner lying around to measure ?

    if so i'll go and measure a volvo/604 liner height and we can compare

    if they are the same then maybe using the volvo 91mm liners might be the way to go
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  20. #20
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    2.3 Magna,


    The sleeve's were custom made by a place in Sydney. I asked a local engine machine shop about making another one and they said 'no problem'


    I'd have some 504 liners here somewhere!!! I'll dig one up in the new day!

    Cheers
    1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16
    1990 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo Wagon
    2000 Peugeot 306 XSI
    1973 Peugeot 504 GL





  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug_405_Mi16
    In my shed here I have an XN block which has custom sleeves in it and Magna 2.3 pistons. The motor also has a lightened and stroked crank

    <FONT color=black><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[img] /><o:p></o:p></FONT></P><P style=[/img]I've got the copper head gasket that goes with it as well.<o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>
    Only problem is it has 1 split sleeve....<o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>
    This motor was created by Alan Robertson *some of you will remember him* That head and carbies I sold you, Graham came off that engine!
    <o:p></o:p>

    Cheers<o:p></o:p>

    <o:p></o:p>

    Ben<o:p></o:p>
    Ben

    ed ge's comments made me re-read my posts. I realized that my questions to you were sort of "rapid fire" but I have noticed that unlike my rambling writing style, yours is precise and to the point so I responded in similar fashion. I certainly appreciate your input and any perceived rudeness is completely unintentional.

    Thanos
    Last edited by Thanos; 3rd September 2005 at 11:15 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    The displacement will give torque too, which I think you mentioned earlier. In a lightened 504, this would really move along.

    The Peugeot factory 504 rally cars were only about 140 - 150hp weren't they? I'm told by those a little more 'experienced' than I that they enjoyed success on the rally circuits of the 70's.
    The group 1 cars with standard manifolds had 140hp.
    The group 2 504s were 160hp minimum and as high as 175. They ran Kugelfischer injection with modified manifolds and bigger throttle body.
    They did have a very big cam, rocker breakages were common and I was talking to a John McConnell who navigated for Peter Huth in the East African Safari, he said that he had to get out of the car and push on very steep hills, the low rev torque was so bad!
    I'll see what I can do re the head and cam but can't promise anything as both he and I are very busy at the moment.
    Graham

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    The group 1 cars with standard manifolds had 140hp.
    The group 2 504s were 160hp minimum and as high as 175. They ran Kugelfischer injection with modified manifolds and bigger throttle body.
    They did have a very big cam, rocker breakages were common and I was talking to a John McConnell who navigated for Peter Huth in the East African Safari, he said that he had to get out of the car and push on very steep hills, the low rev torque was so bad!
    I'll see what I can do re the head and cam but can't promise anything as both he and I are very busy at the moment.
    Graham
    Thank you for all the help, Graham, I will gratefully take the information on the cam/head whenever it is convenient for you to provide.

    These are impressive horsepower figures coming from two liter engines, it would be interesting to see low to mid range torque figures. Low end torque is more important than peak horsepower for our application and reliability is key. Ideally I would like the torque to be from 90 to 100% of maximum between 4000 and 7000 rpms and this has been achieved after a lot of playing around with both the 8v and the 16v 1600cc Peugeots. Hopefully we will find some way to do that with the XN while still maintaining respectable horsepower figures.

    Thanks again

    Thanos

  24. #24
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    My apologies Thanos, I took your english to be much better than second language.

    Cheeky bugga is an olde english slang term, said to anyone who is too forward, or too familiar........

    What might be said by a barmaid that you know, after you had pinched her on the bottom... "you cheeky bugga Thanos"

    I used it in the circumstances of you asking what else Ben had in his shed.
    As if to imply that you were naughty for being so (in all innocence) keen.

    I had noticed you beginning to enjoy using the language... click, click, tap, tap equals... oh,No .......... and was seeking to join you in play.

    Thanos, I hope I have managed to make this more clear, no disrespect was meant to you. It was my thoughtlessness to not think before posting.

    As a '74 504 Ti driver I find your posts most interesting.

    apologies

    ed ge

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Ben

    ed ge's comments made me re-read my posts. I realized that my questions to you were sort of "rapid fire" but I have noticed that unlike my rambling writing style, yours is precise and to the point so I responded in similar fashion. I certainly appreciate your input and any perceived rudeness is completely unintentional.

    Thanos
    Thanos, this was not what I meant and having already spoken out of turn, I feel confident that I can say, we appreciate a casual style of exchange and that I at least enjoy your developing person as your posts come faster.

    Please forgive my rudeness for being too familiar with you.

    Good life and fast driving

    michael

    please feel free to abuse me until you feel compensated.

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