Spraying nitrous on an intercooler
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    Fellow Frogger! Dr_Pug's Avatar
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    Icon4 Spraying nitrous on an intercooler

    Was watching a car racing vid and i observed that nitrous was being sprayed onto the intercooler, according to the author spraying nitrous freezes the intercooler for a short while meaning a cooler inlet charge and gives it a bit more power.

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    True or false ?
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    Fellow Frogger! casnell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackster
    Was watching a car racing vid and i observed that nitrous was being sprayed onto the intercooler, according to the author spraying nitrous freezes the intercooler for a short while meaning a cooler inlet charge and gives it a bit more power.

    True or false ?
    We spray water on the intercooler, iced if it's hot ambient temp, the factory rally cars even had up to 60 l water tanks for this and would use more water than petrol, but never heard of spraying nitrous. We have nitrous oxide at work and when it's discharging the bottles do get cool, but sounds expensive as an i/c spray when iced water is pretty effective...
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    LPG is damn cold as well

    not something to use in hot areas due to bieng flamable
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackster
    Was watching a car racing vid and i observed that nitrous was being sprayed onto the intercooler, according to the author spraying nitrous freezes the intercooler for a short while meaning a cooler inlet charge and gives it a bit more power.

    True or false ?
    I'd say false. I've seen Co2 Intercooler spray kits which would have a similar effect, but not No2. No2 has an intercooling effect by itself when injected, so sprayed accross an IC core would be an expensive and inefficient way to get power and torque. At $110/3 mins on an N/A SR20 motor, even when injected it's not cheap, and Co2 (so I'm told) is much cheaper.

    It could definitely be done, but the question would be why would you throw money away, particularly when the product in question is going to pass through the lower portions of the engine bay and is highly flammable.
    Co2 is fire retardent so poses no threat to occupant safety, and above all is cheaper, so that answers it for me.
    Chris.

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    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    it would work because it'd maek the I/C work more efficently, unless the air was very humid and the I/C froze up.

    I agree with Chris though, fire risk would be reasonably high

    Spraying the I/C is old hat, lots of turbo places sell intercooler spray kits of various sorts.
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    Fellow Frogger! Dr_Pug's Avatar
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    The driver done 2 runs

    Before nitrous I/C cooling

    0-60km/h 3.02sec
    0-100kh/h 6.50sec
    0-150km/h 12.99sec
    1/4mile 11.00sec @ 138mph
    202.7mph

    After nitrous I/C cooling

    0-60km/h 2.99sec
    0-100kh/h 6.23sec
    0-150km/h 12.79sec
    1/4mile 10.66sec @ 140mph
    205.7mph

    I guess you could argue that the difference between the two runs comes down to the driver, and the only way to prove that Nitrous I/C produces more power would be to dyno the car before and after cooling.
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    I'd say its true.... stupid, but true.

    btw, there wouldn't be any serious fire risks. NO2 isn't flammable on its own. Think of it as more of compressed air in a can, then go-fast juice.

    When you ad NO2 to an engine, you still need to add more fuel, which is what burns... to bump the air:fuel ratio back to normal, as adding just NO2 will lean out the engine to smithereens, and kill it, which is what you see most the time, when people associate NOS and blowing engines.... either that, or trying to get too much horsepower from a stock engine.

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    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackster
    The driver done 2 runs

    Before nitrous I/C cooling

    0-60km/h 3.02sec
    0-100kh/h 6.50sec
    0-150km/h 12.99sec
    1/4mile 11.00sec @ 138mph
    202.7mph

    After nitrous I/C cooling

    0-60km/h 2.99sec
    0-100kh/h 6.23sec
    0-150km/h 12.79sec
    1/4mile 10.66sec @ 140mph
    205.7mph
    Looks like an expensive way to make a small(ish) difference to me. Like the others have said I think you'd get the same result with co2 for a fraction of the cost.
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    I've seen carbon dioxide fire extinguishers used to spray the intercooler before a strip run. Actually, I got one on the wall next to me....mmmmm
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAUTY205
    I've seen carbon dioxide fire extinguishers used to spray the intercooler before a strip run. Actually, I got one on the wall next to me....mmmmm
    I reckon the stripper might object...

    would that be a high beam run?
    205gti

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    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAUTY205
    I've seen carbon dioxide fire extinguishers used to spray the intercooler before a strip run. Actually, I got one on the wall next to me....mmmmm
    You wouldnt want to confuse the CO2 extinguisher for the dry power one now would you?

    We once used a CO2 extinguisher to chill a 6 pack of beer - I guess you could call that an emergency!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pips
    I'd say its true.... stupid, but true.

    btw, there wouldn't be any serious fire risks. NO2 isn't flammable on its own. Think of it as more of compressed air in a can, then go-fast juice.

    When you ad NO2 to an engine, you still need to add more fuel, which is what burns... to bump the air:fuel ratio back to normal, as adding just NO2 will lean out the engine to smithereens, and kill it, which is what you see most the time, when people associate NOS and blowing engines.... either that, or trying to get too much horsepower from a stock engine.

    pipsqeek
    Pardon my asking, but if No2 isn't flammable, why are the tanks labelled otherwise? My understanding of even basic chemistry is limited, but I didn't think the F/A mixture served as a catalyst.

    I can appreciate that it's compressed which would make it explosive but not necessarily flammable, but for the tank/bottle to be prohibited from even being connected to the Nitrous feed lines during street use would indicate that it is indeed combustable. In saying that though, the bottles are allowed to be kept in the vehicle, but not connected at any time whilst on public roads, so perhaps I am wrong?

    Back on topic. I've heard of Co2 used in both gaseous and solid form (dry ice) to aid intercooling. I read every issue of Zoom for about 2 years and didn't hear of No2 being used in this application. Obviously I may have missed a relevant article, but it's something I've never heard discussed until now.

    I don't doubt that could be and probably has been tried, but why continue to do it at such expense and inconvenience? Far more gains to be had from injecting it into the motor in my opinion.
    Chris.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casnell
    I reckon the stripper might object...

    would that be a high beam run?
    Ok, haha...
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    Sorry to spoil the fun but NO2 isn't flammable at all, yes the bottle will explode but only because its under pressure, but that's no different to any thing you compress.

    When you inject NO2 into the motor the heat and compression of the engine break NO2 into it fundamentals, Oxygen and Nitrogen.

    We all know Oxygen is highly Flammable and this also raises the amount of oxygen in the motor, thus allowing for more fuel and hence a bigger bang. (although this is where people go wrong - running motors too lean under stress is a good way to blow them).

    Nitrogen on the other hand isn't flammable but acts in rasing the compression a little, but the main gain from nitrogen is that it sucks allot of heat from the combustion chamber, acting as an intercooler if you like.

    Nitrogen has a really low boiling point, well below zero degrees at atmosphere pressure. But when compressed turns back into a liquid. as others have said when discharging compressed gas the bottle gets cold. this is because the gas is sucking heat (energy) since it is boiling so quickly. It is this effect that aids in lowering Combustion Temps.
    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    I'd say false. I've seen Co2 Intercooler spray kits which would have a similar effect, but not No2. No2 has an intercooling effect by itself when injected, so sprayed accross an IC core would be an expensive and inefficient way to get power and torque. At $110/3 mins on an N/A SR20 motor, even when injected it's not cheap, and Co2 (so I'm told) is much cheaper.

    It could definitely be done, but the question would be why would you throw money away, particularly when the product in question is going to pass through the lower portions of the engine bay and is highly flammable.
    Co2 is fire retardent so poses no threat to occupant safety, and above all is cheaper, so that answers it for me.
    Chris.
    Last edited by GTI130; 16th September 2005 at 08:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI130
    Sorry to spoil the fun but NO2 isn't flammable at all, yes the bottle will explode but only because its under pressure, but that's no different to any thing you compress.

    When you inject NO2 into the motor the heat and compression of the engine break NO2 into it fundamentals, Oxygen and Nitrogen.

    We all know Oxygen is highly Flammable and this also raises the amount of oxygen in the motor, thus allowing for more fuel and hence a bigger bang. (although this is where people go wrong - running motors too lean under stress is a good way to blow them).

    Nitrogen on the other hand isn't flammable but acts in rasing the compression a little, but the main gain from nitrogen is that it sucks allot of heat from the combustion chamber, acting as an intercooler if you like.

    Nitrogen has a really low boiling point, well below zero degrees at atmosphere pressure. But when compressed turns back into a liquid. as others have said when discharging compressed gas the bottle gets cold. this is because the gas is sucking heat (energy) since it is boiling so quickly. It is this effect that aids in lowering Combustion Temps.
    Great explanation mate!
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    ever notice the pottery pots seep from the sides? this is because it's cooling the liquid inside the pot by the evaporation of the seeping liquid...

    random fact....

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI130

    We all know Oxygen is highly Flammable
    i don't get it. Oxigen IS flamable. So why cant i light just the oxygen when I use my oxy welding set.... I musn't understand it the same way you do. Please explain as I must have been tought wrong. - Chris
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRI'S16
    i don't get it. Oxigen IS flamable. So why cant i light just the oxygen when I use my oxy welding set.... I musn't understand it the same way you do. Please explain as I must have been tought wrong. - Chris
    Chris

    The air we all breathe is comprised of approximately 80% nitrogen and 20% oxygen. If oxygen was flammable, every time you lit a match, your world would be on fire. Simply explained, a flammable substance will burn if exposed to a flame (or a heat source) in the presence of oxygen. So while oxygen is not flammable, it is an essential part of the combustion process. Putting out a fire involves depriving the flame of oxygen, for example covering it with a blanket. Your lighter has butane (fuel), flint (spark) and you need air (20% oxygen) to generate the flame (combustion of the flammable butane in the presence of oxygen). While I know nothing about oxygen welding, I assume that you have an oxygen source and a flammable gas source like the butane in a lighter. You need both to get the welder going (combustion generates heat, hence the welding) and that's why you cannot light the oxygen alone (no fuel).

    In a car engine, petrol will combust in the presence of oxygen to give you CO2 and H2O. The heat source is your spark. If there is not enough oxygen you get incomplete combustion and the mixture is rich (more unused fuel), if there is too much oxygen the mixture is lean and you need more fuel to consume the extra oxygen. This is essentially the job of your O2 sensor; it indirectly measures how much oxygen is left after combustion and it adjusts fuel supply to achieve stoichiometric (i.e. balanced in terms of fuel and oxygen) combustion.

    I hope this helps.

    Thanos
    Last edited by Thanos; 16th September 2005 at 02:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Chris

    The air we all breathe is comprised of approximately 80% nitrogen and 20% oxygen. If oxygen was flammable, every time you lit a match, your world would be on fire. Simply explained, a flammable substance will burn if exposed to a flame (or a heat source) in the presence of oxygen. So while oxygen is not flammable, it is an essential part of the combustion process. Putting out a fire involves depriving the flame of oxygen, for example covering it with a blanket. Your lighter has butane (fuel), flint (spark) and you need air (20% oxygen) to generate the flame (combustion of the flammable butane in the presence of oxygen). While I know nothing about oxygen welding, I assume that you have an oxygen source and a flammable gas source like the butane in a lighter. You need both to get the welder going (combustion generates heat, hence the welding) and that's why you cannot light the oxygen alone (no fuel).
    Petrol will combust in the presence of oxygen to give you CO2 and H2O. The heat source is your spark. If there is not enough oxygen you get incomplete combustion and the mixture is rich (more unused fuel), if there is too much oxygen the mixture is lean and you need more fuel to consume the extra oxygen. This is essentially the job of your O2 sensor; it indirectly measures how much oxygen is left after combustion and it adjusts fuel supply to achieve stoichiometric (i.e. balanced in terms of fuel and oxygen) combustion.

    I hope this helps.

    Thanos
    Also Chris, if you wanted to increase the heat of the torch do you turn up the oxygen or the acetylene.
    I've seen some guys try and turn the acetylene up only to turn the welder into a flame thrower.
    Turning up the oxygen increasese the temp ( leaning out the mixture).
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    ...mmm thanks GTI130 & Thanos. Unfortunately you haven't tought me anything I didn't know before. Just that the way tradesmen get tought is that oxygen on its own cannot burn, and as you guys have stated it needs another fuel source and ignition to make heat (flame)....
    BUT I have heard of theories were EXTREMELY compressed oxygen will combust... but again it might one of things wanna be tradies use to slag of at each other, kinda like urban myths. I would have to learn more about the sciences & chems behind it all...
    Turning up heat Vs flame size is what your trying to mix with an oxy set. You can have hi heat or intense heat, large or small flame & vice versa.
    .... any way spilt milk. Cheers all. - Chris
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    I know the water spray works, use it in the evo.

    But i have also seen people having a removable scoop over the front of the intercooler, which had dry ice in it to cool down the intercooler before a run.

    Myth busters....... C02, was the ebst way to cool a six pack....... best esky method was salted ice water, took under 10mins if I remember properly.

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    I tried spraying nitrous on my C4's radiator and nothing happened












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    mine just rolls over and giggles lots

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    Originally Posted by GTI130
    We all know Oxygen is highly Flammable

    Originally Posted by CHRI'S16
    i don't get it. Oxigen IS flamable. So why cant i light just the oxygen when I use my oxy welding set.... I musn't understand it the same way you do. Please explain as I must have been tought wrong. - Chris

    Actually, it is NOT.

    Thanos


    Quote Originally Posted by CHRI'S16
    ...BUT I have heard of theories were EXTREMELY compressed oxygen will combust... I would have to learn more about the sciences & chems behind it all...
    Compressed or not, pure oxygen will NOT combust. The basic combustion equation requires a fuel. Unless off course there is some flammable substance (fuel) trapped in it. As for you needing to learn more about the chem, I have a PhD in chemistry, and it seems to me that all the basic stuff is summarized in this thread. As you said you know it already, so you are on pretty solid footing.

    Thanos

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    The simpliest way I can explain it is like this.

    Typically, combustion is a redox reaction. That is a reduction-oxidation/ reductant-oxidant process. The reductant is typically named the fuel, whether it be cellulose (predominate compound in wood and paper), charcoal and sulphur (as in black gunpowder) or hydrocarbons (as in petrol and diesel). The oxidant is typically atmospheric oxygen (thus the name) but can be other sources such as compressed oxygen (such as in oxy-actelylene), potassium nitrate (black gunpowder) or NO2 as an adjunct oxidant in nitro engines.

    Now, if an oxidant is highly concentrated and in the presence of a reductant (fuel) it can lead to spontaneous combustion, depending on the temperature and pressure. Examples of this are gunpowders sensitivity, diesel cycle, and an old method of explosives where coal (reductant) was immersed in liquid oxygen. Even steel shavings will catch fire in the presence of liquid oxygen without any other provaction.

    Now is NO2 flammable? In the presence of a fuel (whether it be petrol, grease or oily rags) it can be part of the combustion process, so technically, yes it is. However, in everyday situations there is always an oxidant present, atmospheric oxygen, but not necessarily a fuel. That is why people generally have trouble considering an oxidant flammable.

    After all, as much as they are both true, when was the last time you heard somebody say 'The air caught fire!' as opposed to 'The housel caught fire!' You can't have one without the other..........



    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Originally Posted by GTI130
    We all know Oxygen is highly Flammable

    Originally Posted by CHRI'S16
    i don't get it. Oxigen IS flamable. So why cant i light just the oxygen when I use my oxy welding set.... I musn't understand it the same way you do. Please explain as I must have been tought wrong. - Chris

    Actually, it is NOT.

    Thanos




    Compressed or not, pure oxygen will NOT combust. The basic combustion equation requires a fuel. Unless off course there is some flammable substance (fuel) trapped in it. As for you needing to learn more about the chem, I have a PhD in chemistry, and it seems to me that all the basic stuff is summarized in this thread. As you said you know it already, so you are on pretty solid footing.

    Thanos

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