504 Suspension: Handling v's Durability
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Default 504 Suspension: Handling v's Durability

    Hi all,

    Just testing my logic here. There have been a few threads about upgrading 504 standard supsension with 505 STI or GTI Springs, uprated shocks and 604 sway bars etc to improve the handling for rally or road use.

    My question is, how do these mods impact upon the durability of the suspension components and the car as a whole. I was just thinking that the softer suspension would be absorbing more than the stiffer suspension set ups and therefore would be more durable for suspension and the car in the long run?

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    The reason I ask is that I do a bit of dirt road exploring /camping etc. in my 504 (not speed or handling related) and it seems the standard suspension is adequate. (But is it the most durable option?) Would like to make it a little taller if anything.

    Any comments about durability question or raising the 504?
    PJ

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Hi all,

    Just testing my logic here. There have been a few threads about upgrading 504 standard supsension with 505 STI or GTI Springs, uprated shocks and 604 sway bars etc to improve the handling for rally or road use.

    My question is, how do these mods impact upon the durability of the suspension components and the car as a whole. I was just thinking that the softer suspension would be absorbing more than the stiffer suspension set ups and therefore would be more durable for suspension and the car in the long run?

    The reason I ask is that I do a bit of dirt road exploring /camping etc. in my 504 (not speed or handling related) and it seems the standard suspension is adequate. (But is it the most durable option?) Would like to make it a little taller if anything.

    Any comments about durability question or raising the 504?
    There are three major impact absorption mechanisms and are happening sequentially: The force of the impact is absorbed by the suspension, the frame and the passenger. The more left over by the previous impact recipient, the more the next is subjected to. With stiffer suspension the passenger gets thrown around a bit more (The frame's capacity to absorb impact remains the same.) As for durability, at the spring rate levels discussed, the effect is negligible.

    It appears that you can raise your 504 three to five centimeters by using 604 springs (front and rear) and struts/suspension arms. If you use the stock struts and use lifting springs only, you will get a lot of positive camber, which is not a good thing.

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    604 struts standard plus the 604 lower arms will still get you positive camber on a 504

    i did that once
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    604 struts standard plus the 604 lower arms will still get you positive camber on a 504

    i did that once
    Is that a good or a bad thing?
    PJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Is that a good or a bad thing?
    The 504 starts out with about half degree of positive camber, which is acceptable, at least according to Peugeot. Depending on the specific car, you gain about one degree of positive camber for every four centimeter increase in height if you do not change the arms. In my opinion, half degree of negative camber is optimum for everyday use, the current half degree poitive in the stock 504 is acceptable, more than one degree positive is not a good thing. If Rambo says that using the 604 arms and struts gives you positive camber, I accept that. The question is whether it is still less than one degree. To summarize, anything between one degree positive and one degree negative camber is acceptable for the use you describe.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    standard 604 struts and lower arms will give you more than 1 deg positive camber

    you will scrub the outside edges of the tyres and the car doesn't handle very well

    a little positive camber aids in low speed manouvres like parking the car

    the car tends to roll in on itself with positive camber when cornering and it is very unsettled

    it's also like dialling in a lot more body roll

    it also takes steering feedback away

    i ran a 504 in this condition for a few weeks to experiment and i very soon went back the other way and dropped it back down
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Member LynCliff's Avatar
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    The answer then to jack up your ride height would be to use 604 springs on 505 STI struts which should lift the 504 but still give you some negative camber.
    STI struts and springs under our rally car 504 give about 4 deg negative which is good on dirt roads but you need about 6mm of toe in to make it work right.

    Lyncliff

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LynCliff
    The answer then to jack up your ride height would be to use 604 springs on 505 STI struts which should lift the 504 but still give you some negative camber.
    STI struts and springs under our rally car 504 give about 4 deg negative which is good on dirt roads but you need about 6mm of toe in to make it work right.

    Lyncliff

    is that to get the wear rate right or to make it handle the way you want it to ?

    i remember when i had 3deg neg camber i had to run the toe differently from standard specs and also adjusted the tyre pressures accordingly to have everything right

    mind you i was running fairly big boots on the car as well
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LynCliff
    The answer then to jack up your ride height would be to use 604 springs on 505 STI struts which should lift the 504 but still give you some negative camber.
    STI struts and springs under our rally car 504 give about 4 deg negative which is good on dirt roads but you need about 6mm of toe in to make it work right.

    Lyncliff
    Good idea! You are referring to the newer 505 struts (post 1982?) right?

    Is the 6mm toe in increasing rolling resistance? I use around 2mm in my 504 coupe but my camber is one degree negative, so more toe in for more negative camber sounds reasonable, I am just wondering if this set-up allows free forward movement.

    Thanos

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    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Thank you for your comments .. however it is sounding all a bit hard for me. Seems fiddling with the front end seems to pose all problems and unknowns that are out of my depth.

    Can I refine my question?

    How can you beef up the rear suspension, perhaps for greater height and load carrying capacity? i.e. if the 504 is loaded with gear how can you keep the back end off the ground to maintain at least standard unladen height?

    Taller springs? Air shocks?
    PJ

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Thank you for your comments .. however it is sounding all a bit hard for me. Seems fiddling with the front end seems to pose all problems and unknowns that are out of my depth.

    Can I refine my question?

    How can you beef up the rear suspension, perhaps for greater height and load carrying capacity? i.e. if the 504 is loaded with gear how can you keep the back end off the ground to maintain at least standard unladen height?

    Taller springs? Air shocks?

    taller, stiffer springs will give you rear end clearance and will also prevent the dreaded SBS disease that all 504/505/604 get over time

    SBS = saggy bum syndrome
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Thank you for your comments .. however it is sounding all a bit hard for me. Seems fiddling with the front end seems to pose all problems and unknowns that are out of my depth.

    Can I refine my question?

    How can you beef up the rear suspension, perhaps for greater height and load carrying capacity? i.e. if the 504 is loaded with gear how can you keep the back end off the ground to maintain at least standard unladen height?

    Taller springs? Air shocks?
    Have rear springs custom made by a local manufacturer. (An internet search indicated K-Mac and King's in Australia.) I believe the following specs will fully cover your needs: Uncompressed height 16.5 inches, spring rate 260 lbs/inch, approximately 9 coils. I am not sure about the cost there, in Greece they would cost around 130 euros.

    Careful, though, the car will oversteer more once you do that. (It will be more tail-happy.) I personally consider this an improvement in handling, but don't let it surprise you till you get used to it.

    Thanos
    Last edited by Thanos; 28th August 2005 at 10:00 PM.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Thicker springs and/or light truck/suv tyres.

    Road going larger tyre fittings will give you some height immediately, suv tyres must be pretty well thought out these days.

    If you had the spring specs, looking for 1 or 2 point upgrade shouldn't be too onerous, direct from manufacturer or second hand.

    Who was saying 504's dont mind running high?

    Good on a working car I reckon.

    ed ge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Hi all,

    Just testing my logic here. There have been a few threads about upgrading 504 standard supsension with 505 STI or GTI Springs, uprated shocks and 604 sway bars etc to improve the handling for rally or road use.

    My question is, how do these mods impact upon the durability of the suspension components and the car as a whole. I was just thinking that the softer suspension would be absorbing more than the stiffer suspension set ups and therefore would be more durable for suspension and the car in the long run?

    The reason I ask is that I do a bit of dirt road exploring /camping etc. in my 504 (not speed or handling related) and it seems the standard suspension is adequate. (But is it the most durable option?) Would like to make it a little taller if anything.

    Any comments about durability question or raising the 504?

    Stiffer springs are good for keeping the body shell intact.
    All my rally cars, both 504 and 404 with standard suspension have cracked in the A pillars due to the car bottoming out all the time.
    Stiffer springs will give the occupants a harder ride but will save the body. Graham

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Thicker springs and/or light truck/suv tyres.

    Road going larger tyre fittings will give you some height immediately, suv tyres must be pretty well thought out these days.

    If you had the spring specs, looking for 1 or 2 point upgrade shouldn't be too onerous, direct from manufacturer or second hand.

    Who was saying 504's dont mind running high?

    Good on a working car I reckon.

    ed ge
    Already have light truck tyres on it. (Dunlop Adventurers - they are 12 mm taller and a very durable tyre - big notchy tread pattern - solid sidewall).

    Are there any stock pug springs that will give me those increased specs? 604? 505 STI?

    I take it from your answers that shocks have nothing to do with this and the current shocks will do?
    PJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Already have light truck tyres on it. (Dunlop Adventurers - they are 12 mm taller and a very durable tyre - big notchy tread pattern - solid sidewall).

    Are there any stock pug springs that will give me those increased specs? 604? 505 STI?

    I take it from your answers that shocks have nothing to do with this and the current shocks will do?
    Late 505 STi / GTi series 1 springs will give greater stiffness.
    The shocks need to match the springs so should be uprated as well.
    The genuine 505 shocks are the ones to go for on the rear, someday someone will make an aftermarket shock that works in this aplication but it hasn't happened yet.
    Hopefully before all of the genuine ones are worn out!!
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by LynCliff
    The answer then to jack up your ride height would be to use 604 springs on 505 STI struts which should lift the 504 but still give you some negative camber.
    STI struts and springs under our rally car 504 give about 4 deg negative which is good on dirt roads but you need about 6mm of toe in to make it work right.

    Lyncliff
    There comes a point were if you lower the 504 the radius rod triangle arm travels up beyond level with the crossmember so bringing the base of the strut inward hence reducing the camber that is about 5 or 6 cm lower so you can go either way.

    Als

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    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Late 505 STi / GTi series 1 springs will give greater stiffness.
    The shocks need to match the springs so should be uprated as well.
    The genuine 505 shocks are the ones to go for on the rear, someday someone will make an aftermarket shock that works in this aplication but it hasn't happened yet.
    Hopefully before all of the genuine ones are worn out!!
    Graham
    Thanks Graham ... any suggestions as where to start looking for late 505 STI springs and matching shocks? EAI? Is it worthwhile looking for used parts for this or better off getting new genuine parts? (I presume the used springs would have lost some of their stiffness which would be defeating my purpose).
    PJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Thanks Graham ... any suggestions as where to start looking for late 505 STI springs and matching shocks? EAI? Is it worthwhile looking for used parts for this or better off getting new genuine parts? (I presume the used springs would have lost some of their stiffness which would be defeating my purpose).
    Yes, my series 1 GTi has very sagged springs. EAI sell new parts and I don't think that new springs would be available.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Yes, my series 1 GTi has very sagged springs. EAI sell new parts and I don't think that new springs would be available.
    Graham
    Graham

    In case you are interested in 505 rear spring rates, yellow/green 210 lbs/inch, grey/green 245lbs/inch. As the original springs and shocks are becoming tired and rare, perhaps we should build a 504/505 spring rate and shock library so custom manufacturers can duplicate them. If people have physical samples and can measure number of coils and coil thickness, we can build up a Peugeot color code/spring rate reference table.

    I was also told by an old salt here that the later STI shocks were the stiffest in the series, even stiffer than the turbo's.

    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Graham

    In case you are interested in 505 rear spring rates, yellow/green 210 lbs/inch, grey/green 245lbs/inch. As the original springs and shocks are becoming tired and rare, perhaps we should build a 504/505 spring rate and shock library so custom manufacturers can duplicate them. If people have physical samples and can measure number of coils and coil thickness, we can build up a Peugeot color code/spring rate reference table.

    I was also told by an old salt here that the later STI shocks were the stiffest in the series, even stiffer than the turbo's.

    Thanos
    I wouldn't be surprised, I tried a set of Series 2 springs and they seemed quite soft by comparison,
    There is certainly a demand for uprated 504/505 springs. I am a bit busy with 205 and 404 projects at the moment though to do anything about this.
    Graham

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