XN2 TI camshaft
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Thread: XN2 TI camshaft

  1. #1
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    Default XN2 TI camshaft

    A mechanic at the local Peugeot dealership who was working on my 504 for the first time mentioned to me that the cam on the 504 TI (with the XN2 Kugelfischer injected motor) is designed around the vacuum needs of the mechanical injection system and if it was hotted up the car will not run well. Any opinions on that? Will this be true of a moderate 273 degree cam? This kid was not even born when my 73 coupe was made but he is a real wizzard with the newer cars. He managed to squeeze 168 hp out of my 16V 1600cc 106 Rallye, so I tend to take him seriously.

    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    A mechanic at the local Peugeot dealership who was working on my 504 for the first time mentioned to me that the cam on the 504 TI (with the XN2 Kugelfischer injected motor) is designed around the vacuum needs of the mechanical injection system and if it was hotted up the car will not run well. Any opinions on that? Will this be true of a moderate 273 degree cam? This kid was not even born when my 73 coupe was made but he is a real wizzard with the newer cars. He managed to squeeze 168 hp out of my 16V 1600cc 106 Rallye, so I tend to take him seriously.

    Thanos
    Now I am answering my own posts, how lame is that! Seriously now,I got a private message regarding my question, many thanks to the sender. He agreed with my mechanic and mentioned that McBean had listed a grind in this forum that would work well with the TI. Is this the Wade A112 that McBean has listed on his site? When I called Wade last year they said it was no longer available, but I can get any grind done here in Greece. And while I am at it, does anyone have a reference for a good grind for the ZDJL? BTW, when I tried to reply to the private message my note came back as undeliverable.

    Thanos


    Thanos

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    Default 504 cams

    the choice of cam in your coupe would depend on if you were retaining the injection system or going to twin sidedraft webber carbs on the 4 port (injected)head, good luck finding a manifold for the carbs!!!!

    most of the competition 504s I have seen are setup this way,
    probably for more than one reason
    good luck

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    there is not a lot you can do with the cam as the injection system relies on vacuum

    the other thing you can do it to put EFI on it or carbies and then you can do something about the cam

    you can increase the compression ratio though and that gives you some gains and give the car a good free flowing exhaust

    there is also the other option that i have seen done and that is a 2nd throttle body but you would need to look at injectors then or run a 2nd pump as well but then you are talking serious mods
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpine
    the choice of cam in your coupe would depend on if you were retaining the injection system or going to twin sidedraft webber carbs on the 4 port (injected)head, good luck finding a manifold for the carbs!!!!

    most of the competition 504s I have seen are setup this way,
    probably for more than one reason
    good luck

    the manifolds are quite easy to make but the thing to remember is the distance you need from the butterfly in the carb to the inlet valve

    when i was looking around at doing this and then did it i spoke to many people who had done this conversion many times and the best length was 7" from butterfly to valve
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpine
    the choice of cam in your coupe would depend on if you were retaining the injection system or going to twin sidedraft webber carbs on the 4 port (injected)head, good luck finding a manifold for the carbs!!!!

    most of the competition 504s I have seen are setup this way,
    probably for more than one reason
    good luck
    Carbs or EFI are not an option, the historic racing I do here forbids it. I know most everyone uses the Weber DCOE 45 whenever allowed. I got everything else going (valves, header, exhaust). What is my best cam option?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Now I am answering my own posts, how lame is that! Seriously now,I got a private message regarding my question, many thanks to the sender. He agreed with my mechanic and mentioned that McBean had listed a grind in this forum that would work well with the TI. Is this the Wade A112 that McBean has listed on his site? When I called Wade last year they said it was no longer available, but I can get any grind done here in Greece. And while I am at it, does anyone have a reference for a good grind for the ZDJL? BTW, when I tried to reply to the private message my note came back as undeliverable.

    Thanos


    Thanos
    I had a 112 grind done last year for a 403 engine. No such thing as unavailable, if they have the specifications they can grind the camshaft.
    Don't know about the A in front though, maybe they can't recognise this, Dave has always referred to it as just a 112.
    The bad news is that I recently talked to a person who has put a 112 into his injected rally car and he wasn't happy, no better than standard.
    If you can manage it within the rules I would definitely fit an aftermarket EFI system. Second hand fuel only ECUs or the do it yourself Megasquirt system are available very cheaply and are very easy to set up.
    I have tried for years to get the Kugelfischer system to work properly and have come to the conclusion that like K-Jetronic this system has a limited service life and nowadays just isn't worth playing around with.
    I recently fitted a Megasquirt system to a ZDJL engine and the improvement was dramatic, torque down to 2000 rpm and it would rev easily to 7300! This would suggest that the standard camshaft in the ZDJL is adequate.
    Graham

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    seeing EFI was available around the time your car was made you may be able to fit it and they possibly wouldn't know the difference

    you should be able to keep most of it looking standard except for the lack of injection pump and a few wires

    you would probably save a little weight at the same time
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    seeing EFI was available around the time your car was made you may be able to fit it and they possibly wouldn't know the difference

    you should be able to keep most of it looking standard except for the lack of injection pump and a few wires

    you would probably save a little weight at the same time
    The EFI injectors would be a dead give away though!
    Sean, I will be contacting you shortly re the Ampol, I have just about organised the sporting events, now need to get a few more display venues finalised.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    I had a 112 grind done last year for a 403 engine. No such thing as unavailable, if they have the specifications they can grind the camshaft.
    Don't know about the A in front though, maybe they can't recognise this, Dave has always referred to it as just a 112.
    The bad news is that I recently talked to a person who has put a 112 into his injected rally car and he wasn't happy, no better than standard.
    If you can manage it within the rules I would definitely fit an aftermarket EFI system. Second hand fuel only ECUs or the do it yourself Megasquirt system are available very cheaply and are very easy to set up.
    I have tried for years to get the Kugelfischer system to work properly and have come to the conclusion that like K-Jetronic this system has a limited service life and nowadays just isn't worth playing around with.
    I recently fitted a Megasquirt system to a ZDJL engine and the improvement was dramatic, torque down to 2000 rpm and it would rev easily to 7300! This would suggest that the standard camshaft in the ZDJL is adequate.
    Graham
    Many thanks Graham, I will see if I can somehow get approval for the Megasquirt in the 504 coupe. I did after all manage by changing category (from standeard to modified) to get approval to use the ignition from a 505 SR and the front brakes from a 604 although I have not done it yet. I plan to do it after I race the Greek Mille Miglia in the standard category in September.
    I am certainly buying Megasquirt for the 505 as it is my fun-only dirt road trasportation and I do not need anybody's approval. (I am assuming that an internet search will provide their contact info.) What is involved in installing the Megasquirt system system to the 504 and 505? Would I be needing additional components? Will I need to set it up on the dyno, or is my Gtech enough? (www.gtechpro.com)

    Another question: Is there a benefit to using Megasquirt for my 16V 1600cc 106 Rallye? It is already at 168 hp, revs to 8500 at a blink, but hey, power corrupts but lack of power corrupts absolutely.

    I know these are a lot of questions but I want to ask them while I have the master's ear.

    Many thanks in advance

    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Many thanks Graham, I will see if I can somehow get approval for the Megasquirt in the 504 coupe. I did after all manage by changing category (from standeard to modified) to get approval to use the ignition from a 505 SR and the front brakes from a 604 although I have not done it yet. I plan to do it after I race the Greek Mille Miglia in the standard category in September.
    I am certainly buying Megasquirt for the 505 as it is my fun-only dirt road trasportation and I do not need anybody's approval. (I am assuming that an internet search will provide their contact info.) What is involved in installing the Megasquirt system system to the 504 and 505? Would I be needing additional components? Will I need to set it up on the dyno, or is my Gtech enough? (www.gtechpro.com)

    Another question: Is there a benefit to using Megasquirt for my 16V 1600cc 106 Rallye? It is already at 168 hp, revs to 8500 at a blink, but hey, power corrupts but lack of power corrupts absolutely.

    I know these are a lot of questions but I want to ask them while I have the master's ear.

    Many thanks in advance

    Thanos

    Megasquirt is a simple system ideal for converting older cars to EFI so I can't see any advantage to the 106 particularly as it is going so well at the moment. There is, however, a more advanced Megasquirt system being developed at the moment, what does the 106 use presently?
    The most difficult thing with converting the 504 is to fit the EFI injectors into the inlet manifold, you will also need to fit a throttle position sensor, an inlet air temperature sensor and an oxygen sensor. If you fit injectors from certain Nissans you won't need to use a fuel rail as these are mounted individually. Of course you will need to fit an EFI fuel pump and pressure regulator, getting rid of all the original fuel plumbing.
    You can do a lot of the tuning on the road (using a lap top computer to control the ECU) by making use of the oxygen sensor to measure air/fuel mixture. Very quick to do on a dyno though.
    Have a look at the very comprehensive Megasquirt website for details.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Megasquirt is a simple system ideal for converting older cars to EFI so I can't see any advantage to the 106 particularly as it is going so well at the moment. There is, however, a more advanced Megasquirt system being developed at the moment, what does the 106 use presently?
    The most difficult thing with converting the 504 is to fit the EFI injectors into the inlet manifold, you will also need to fit a throttle position sensor, an inlet air temperature sensor and an oxygen sensor. If you fit injectors from certain Nissans you won't need to use a fuel rail as these are mounted individually. Of course you will need to fit an EFI fuel pump and pressure regulator, getting rid of all the original fuel plumbing.
    You can do a lot of the tuning on the road (using a lap top computer to control the ECU) by making use of the oxygen sensor to measure air/fuel mixture. Very quick to do on a dyno though.
    Have a look at the very comprehensive Megasquirt website for details.
    Graham
    Thanks for the quick respnce Graham.

    The 106 uses the stock injection system, but the Peugeot Sport computer was reprogrammed on the dyno since it did not work as well with the reprofiled cams. I just uprated the pressure regulator to 3.5 bar. I did however have problems after extended periods at 8000 rpms, I would burn one exhaust valve (it happened four times). We retarded timing by 1.5 degrees and it has yet to happen but I haven't given it a fair chance so far.

    For the 504 is my best bet to go with DCOE 40 Webbers and an aggressive cam (280 or so), just to keep things simple, or would the Megasquirt make it so much better? Can someone suggest (or perhaps sell) a complete EFI conversion kit? I am in the dark (and in very good company here in Greece) when it comes to 504 conversions. However, I am a bit tired of tinkering with the Kugelfisher, and I may just build the coupe the way I want it to be and just buy this nice carburated 504 Berline that I found for 600 euros and use that for racing. I ALWAYS wanted a 504 four door, I think they are so beautiful, and I won't have to worry about wrecking my coupe. It is only one of two in Greece and impossible to get body parts for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Thanks for the quick respnce Graham.

    The 106 uses the stock injection system, but the Peugeot Sport computer was reprogrammed on the dyno since it did not work as well with the reprofiled cams. I just uprated the pressure regulator to 3.5 bar. I did however have problems after extended periods at 8000 rpms, I would burn one exhaust valve (it happened four times). We retarded timing by 1.5 degrees and it has yet to happen but I haven't given it a fair chance so far.

    For the 504 is my best bet to go with DCOE 40 Webbers and an aggressive cam (280 or so), just to keep things simple, or would the Megasquirt make it so much better? Can someone suggest (or perhaps sell) a complete EFI conversion kit? I am in the dark (and in very good company here in Greece) when it comes to 504 conversions. However, I am a bit tired of tinkering with the Kugelfisher, and I may just build the coupe the way I want it to be and just buy this nice carburated 504 Berline that I found for 600 euros and use that for racing. I ALWAYS wanted a 504 four door, I think they are so beautiful, and I won't have to worry about wrecking my coupe. It is only one of two in Greece and impossible to get body parts for.

    I would definitely go for the fuel injection.
    I have seen many Webered 504s and none have gone all that well.
    EFI is MUCH easier to tune ( a big saving in labour cost) and probably cheaper to buy as well, Weber parts are very expensive. Add to this the fuel savings with EFI.
    It would probably be easier to fit the EFI injectors to the KF manifold than to build a Weber manifold complete with distributor drive extension.
    Graham

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    the thing to remember when putting DCOE's on a TI head is to reduce the size of the inlet port

    as it stands they are too big for carbies and anything over a 40mm throat is too much

    depending on the tuning of the engine 32mm verturi is about right for these carbs as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    I would definitely go for the fuel injection.
    I have seen many Webered 504s and none have gone all that well.
    EFI is MUCH easier to tune ( a big saving in labour cost) and probably cheaper to buy as well, Weber parts are very expensive. Add to this the fuel savings with EFI.
    It would probably be easier to fit the EFI injectors to the KF manifold than to build a Weber manifold complete with distributor drive extension.
    Graham
    Thank you, Graham, I will move in that direction with the 504 when I decide to do away with the KF. (Which will be the next time it gives me I problem. I just had to change the membranes and o-ring, talk about tedious.)

    Does anyone have a list of what I need from Megasquirt for the ZDJL conversion and any tips for the installation?

    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    The EFI injectors would be a dead give away though!
    Sean, I will be contacting you shortly re the Ampol, I have just about organised the sporting events, now need to get a few more display venues finalised.
    Graham

    no problem Graham

    i spoke to the other fella the other day, i'll see what he has done so far and we can go from there
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    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    the thing to remember when putting DCOE's on a TI head is to reduce the size of the inlet port

    as it stands they are too big for carbies and anything over a 40mm throat is too much

    depending on the tuning of the engine 32mm verturi is about right for these carbs as well
    This is a good point, Pugrambo, especially since I have increased I and E valve sizes by 2 mm. I will go with the EFI as Graham suggested. I will just have to look for a total package as the term "EFI ignoramus" is an accurate description for this Greek Peugeot maniac. All ideas in that direction will be much appreciated.

    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    This is a good point, Pugrambo, especially since I have increased I and E valve sizes by 2 mm. I will go with the EFI as Graham suggested. I will just have to look for a total package as the term "EFI ignoramus" is an accurate description for this Greek Peugeot maniac. All ideas in that direction will be much appreciated.

    Thanos

    follow Grahams lead and check out the megasquirt site

    the other thing would be grabbing a 505GTI engine and swapping or using the parts from that on the 504 engine

    i thought about that a while ago but not knowing what your parts supplies there are like makes it hard
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    follow Grahams lead and check out the megasquirt site

    the other thing would be grabbing a 505GTI engine and swapping or using the parts from that on the 504 engine

    i thought about that a while ago but not knowing what your parts supplies there are like makes it hard
    I already sent a note to Megasquirt, both for the XN2 and the ZDJL. What type of engine is in the 505 GTI and which parts should I be using on the 504? Early STI's here had the XN1 or the 1985 K-jet, but there are no GTI's that I have seen. But please feel free to suggest away because I will be in France for Christmas in a big SUV (snowboarding trip with wife and kids, not just for parts, I am not that demented, YET) and I can go parts hunting.

    Thanos

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