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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Default heh - worth asking :)

    What are the chances of shoe horning the 3.0L V6 in the C5, into the C4?



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    If i was willing to spend the right amount of $$$$$, would any Citroen specialist in Australia be able to handle this?

    I've seen even crazier things done with froggies in the U.K...
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  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    Question "a") What are the chances of shoe horning the 3.0L V6 in the C5, into the C4?



    Question "b" /1 If i was willing to spend the right amount of $$$$$, /2would any Citroen specialist in Australia be able to handle this?

    I've seen even crazier things done with froggies in the U.K...
    Answer to Question "a" ......... I've seen V8s in Escoerts, so anything's possible. Car is worthless when finished, but it is possible no doubt.

    Answer to Question "b".......... 1/ If you were willing to spend the money, there's plenty willing to take it..... 2/ NO!!

    If you've got that much dough to toss around you don't know what to do with it, I'll send you my address.


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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Maybe i should ask the dealer if he could handle a project of this magnitude

    Here's a V6 Xsara VTS - http://www.revistahot.com.br/revista/noticias.asp?id=11

    Theres gotta be something i can do to this frog to get more power out of it...

    I'm tempted to visit one of those jap performance garages nearby..
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Save all the hassle (and possibly a large chunk of money) and buy one of these;

    http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsa...cle_id=2227805

    I guess you can put Citroen badges on it if it makes you feel comfortable. It will also make the car infinitely reliable.

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I can't believe it .... but I actually agree with Brenno for a change (NNNNNNNnnnnooooooooooooooooooo ). It would be $$$ wasted.

    Seriously if you want a fast Citroen that would be worth something when finished I see only two real choices.

    Quickish Citroens are:

    --SM ... any type, those Maserati's can give lots of power if you have (very, very) deep pockets. The car would still be worth good $$$ when finished as it still is a standard SM, only has a deliciously rebuilt Maserati Donk in it.

    --CX 2500 GTi turbo --EASIEST of the lot to get some serious HP gains for a reasonable amount. Buy the best car you can find, there is actually someone in Australia with experiance on this .... Alans son Brad. See if you can do a deal with him to install an aftermarket ECU and increase the boost dramatically. You will have a reliable *very fast* car that should still be worth decent $$$ when finished. Brad would already know about fitting big intercoolers, and oil coolers etc... to ensure everything is kept nice 'n' cool.

    --BX 16valve ... IMO -- Not worth the effort, it's already such an exceptionally designed and built motor in it, any power gain would be minor for enormous outlays of cash.

    --XM V6 24valve .... See comments on BX16valve

    --Xsara ... yuk ... seriously ... get a proper Citroen with some style and decent suspension under it.

    --Xantia CT turbo ... Weighs the same as the CX, but has a signifigantly smaller engine (just under 2litres to the CX's 2.5)... That's a big chunk of capacity/power to have to make up for ... Plus if your going to spend these sorts of $$$ you want a car with style... Not a boring as sh!t, bland looking Xantia.

    Really as far as I can see the only real contender for reasonable (but still sizable) amounts of cash is the CX turbo .... It's the fact that it incredibaly strongly built, and turbo'd that gives so much capability for more power with some well thought out tuning.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Thanks for the list Shane.

    I'm considering getting another older Cit, as soon as i get rid of the Jag.

    However, i'd also like to get something more out of the C4, preferably with the current 2.0L engine.

    What's with these dead French engines, it's so easy to get something out of Jap 2.0L engines.
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  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    Thanks for the list Shane.

    I'm considering getting another older Cit, as soon as i get rid of the Jag.

    However, i'd also like to get something more out of the C4, preferably with the current 2.0L engine.

    What's with these dead French engines, it's so easy to get something out of Jap 2.0L engines.
    I'm sure there's lots of riceboy sh!t out there for Jap motors .... But does it actually give any extra power .... If it does the same stuff will work on a french motor (ie: cams, ECU changes, throttle bodies .... etc...). All I'm saying is for the equivelant $$$ of a very minor power gain in a N/A 2litre motor, you could have huge power gain on the turbo'd motor (reliably if performed well).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  8. #8
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    This is as good a starting point as any.
    This guy tells it straight up and can supply the necessary components at a price as quoted, but will guarantee his claims all the way down the track.
    He has the reputation of being as good as he sounds and I hear as a guest speaker, he is rather "unique" in that he doesn't pander to whims of the audience. If an idea's crap; that's what he calls it!!

    http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm

    http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug2058v.htm

    Always a good forthright read. Makes a lot of sense with no fancy ribbons attached.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Thanks for the links Alan, you've given me hope!!
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    He's talking about the Peugeot Mi16 engine tho, how does that compare with the 2.0L in the C4?

    EDIT: I've e-mailed him, to see if he has anything in mind, that can be done to the C4.
    Last edited by Uga Boga; 10th August 2005 at 01:03 PM.
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  11. #11
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    He's talking about the Peugeot Mi16 engine tho, how does that compare with the 2.0L in the C4?

    EDIT: I've e-mailed him, to see if he has anything in mind, that can be done to the C4.
    Not in the second link; that's the 8 Valve motor. The first is the 16.
    He handles all kinds of engines but has a real soft spot for the types of things he can do to the PSA engines.

    Alan S
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  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'd still be tempted to leave the C4 standard .... And get a toy car to do the "go fast" stuff on.

    The C4 is under warranty .... that you will void... It's got a slugomatic gearbox, so even if you do manage to get a lot more power out of the motor, you may just kill the gearbox (or make it a [email protected] of a thing to drive as the power has moved up to rev range ... ie: you need to rev the sh!t out of it to get it to go ... Just what you do NOT want with a slugomatic gearbox).

    Each to there own... If you do go ahead with it, it would be very interesting to see how it turns out.

    Simple and cheap ?? Go an buy Macquareds BX16valve that has the Peter T cams fitted, send the head over to Puma Racing and have it upgraded to a big valve head and throttle bodies .... It'll probably cost you more for the engine work than you paid for the car ... But gee's it'd go

    Me ?? I use the far more substantial CX as a base .... As I'd only really use if for cruising in ... If you wanted to do some track work of the weekend ... BX everytime without fail.

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    O/S valves are about A$500 a set and the T/Bs I can't say at present as they're "Under Construction" but the most expensive part I could enviseage would be a MoTeC engine management system which would probably set you back around A$4500 fitted.
    Personally, I think that would be the most imporatant component to getting maximum benefit from these kinds of mods.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    I'd still be tempted to leave the C4 standard .... And get a toy car to do the "go fast" stuff on.

    The C4 is under warranty .... that you will void... It's got a slugomatic gearbox, so even if you do manage to get a lot more power out of the motor, you may just kill the gearbox (or make it a [email protected] of a thing to drive as the power has moved up to rev range ... ie: you need to rev the sh!t out of it to get it to go ... Just what you do NOT want with a slugomatic gearbox).

    Each to there own... If you do go ahead with it, it would be very interesting to see how it turns out.

    Simple and cheap ?? Go an buy Macquareds BX16valve that has the Peter T cams fitted, send the head over to Puma Racing and have it upgraded to a big valve head and throttle bodies .... It'll probably cost you more for the engine work than you paid for the car ... But gee's it'd go

    Me ?? I use the far more substantial CX as a base .... As I'd only really use if for cruising in ... If you wanted to do some track work of the weekend ... BX everytime without fail.

    seeya
    Shane L.
    Well, isn't the 4-spd auto box in the C4 Exclusive, the same as the autobox in the C5 3.0L V6? The C5 V6 pulls in 155kW on the same auto box.

    Seems like a hardy box...

    The thing is, with the C4, the interior is simply perfect other then a few rattles, i'd love to combine stylish interior with better performance.

    If i was to buy the BX, i'd have to get the whole interior re done.. plus it's done 184,000kms, whilst the C4 has only done 6,000kms.

    The problem with the C4, is everything seems computer controlled, even the darn air filter!!
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  15. #15
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    Well, isn't the 4-spd auto box in the C4 Exclusive, the same as the autobox in the C5 3.0L V6? The C5 V6 pulls in 155kW on the same auto box.
    Nope, the PSA V6s with the 4 speed unit run a ZF.

    The 407 is now using a 6sp Aisin-Warner unit though.

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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    Nope, the PSA V6s with the 4 speed unit run a ZF.

    The 407 is now using a 6sp Aisin-Warner unit though.
    Agh.. he's probably right in that case... not much power would be able to go through it..

    AL4 = C4 auto box right?
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Auto-adaptive Transmission
    The 1.6L 80 kW and the 2.0L 130 kW engines are available with an auto-adaptive automatic transmission with sequential shift option.

    http://www.citroen.com.au/cms/defaul...ticle&ID=11567

    Since when was the VTS available with auto?!?
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  18. #18
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    Agh.. he's probably right in that case... not much power would be able to go through it..

    AL4 = C4 auto box right?
    Ding

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  19. #19
    al
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    Can you just wack some NOS on something like this... Could be fun for a bit...

    Seriously though, it is getting pretty common on frogs in the UK. Would it kill the engine though?
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Isn't NOS illegal in AU tho?
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  21. #21
    al
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    Isn't NOS illegal in AU tho?
    I didn't think of that... Something makes me think you would be unlucky to be busted for it driving a C4...
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts TroyO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    Auto-adaptive Transmission
    The 1.6L 80 kW and the 2.0L 130 kW engines are available with an auto-adaptive automatic transmission with sequential shift option.

    http://www.citroen.com.au/cms/defaul...ticle&ID=11567

    Since when was the VTS available with auto?!?
    It's not, it's a typo, they have the 103kW and 130kW engines mixed up in the transmission description.

    Troy.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by al
    I didn't think of that... Something makes me think you would be unlucky to be busted for it driving a C4...
    Yeah it's worth the risk, i've never been stopped by the cops in the C4, typical grandpa car
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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! johnh875's Avatar
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    Best thing to give the thing a bit more grunt would be to install a low-boost turbo setup, it may be possible to get by on the standard ecu with a rising rate fuel regulator, with a Unichip or similar. Keep it under control and you shouldn't have any internal probs although it may be desirable to drop compression ratio a bit (eg if 11:1...) I don't read Fast Fours type magazines but they often have turbo conversions which would give you a few workshops to talk to. Sure your car is not the Jap-mobile they are used to working on, but they would be familiar with the process and should be up to sourcing/making custom bits necessary. (who knows you might even end up featured in Fast Fours mag... )

    PS: beware of emissions compliance - no matter what you do

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    That does sound like a good option John.

    I think i'll visit some Jap performance specialists, will be interesting to hear what they have to say
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