can I "lift" out S2 Mi16 engine (XU10J4) ?
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  1. #1
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    Icon5 can I "lift" out S2 Mi16 engine (XU10J4) ?

    on saturday I was walking around the rear of the Mi when I noticed fine oily spots in the dust on the rear panel. My previous experience of this was on a 504 with a chronic gerabox oil leak. I quick look underneath revealed rather a lot of oil on the ground under the passenger side of the car and lots of oil on hte steering box, cross member and back down the passenger floor.

    With a horrible feeling of deja-vu after shattering a diff housing and dumping all the gear box oil last year I sniffed the oil - definitely not gearbox/hypoid - what a relief!

    In the end it seems that I have had a fairly sudden and catastrophic failure of the crankshaft oilseal behind the flywheel. The oil is coming from the bell housing and is dripping from behind the flywheel cover plate....

    So the questions are:
    1. Is there any other explanation of the source of this oil? Oil gallery welsh plug on the end of the blocK? etc.
    2. Any ideas or experience of these seals going so suddenly? ( I replaced the clutch cable two weeks ago and there was no indication of this kind of leak then
    3. the Haynes manual says that it is possible to lift out the engine/gearbox assembly. Has anyone done this? any tricks? What about doing it without degassing the air-con?

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    I have had the gearbox off before to fix the diff housing problem and I know I can do that again if I have to but I would like the opportunity to replace camshaft seals and the other crank seals and look for the source of a niggling oil leak from somewhere above the water pump which I could not find when I did the cambelt a little while back so gettng the whole lot out has some attraction....

    Regards

    Trevor
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Don't drive it or you'll contaminate the clutch !! It's amazing you haven't already got oil on it if the rear main seals gone.

    Apparantly you can remove just the gearbox, however for ease of access personally I'd just whip the whole lot out myself.

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  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Be sure to have a proper engine lifter and one of these:

    http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....sPageName=WDVW

    The engine has to be dropped on a few strange angles or in the case of some BXs, dropped through the bottom. You should be OK leaving the air/con in situ but with the proviso you have a leveller and a crane which aren't all that expensive these days and in my opinion if you own a FWD with East/West mechanicals, not owning these items is almost akin to a motor bike witout wheels.

    http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....sPageName=WDVW

    They are so cheap to buy now, they're a must if you are doing work DIY.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I have removed the gearbox on a S1 Mi16 to change the clutch, and I've removed the auto transmission from a S2 405 to change the engine rear oil seal. I've also taken motors out by themselves, and also engine and gearbox as a complete unit.

    If all you want to do it replace the rear seal, just remove the gearbox. It's actually not a bad job (much harder with the auto's, because the transmission weighs about 7,432 times more ).

    Remove battery and tray, airflow meter and filter, disconnect clutch cable, reversing light switch, gear linkages. There's a few other little cables and hoses clamped to the gearbox you'll need to move as well. Jack car up and put on engine stands, as high as you can get it to go. Take off both front wheels, undo intermediate driveshaft bearing carrier on back of engine (next to lower engine mount), undo kingpin bolts, then slide the entire wheel/driveshaft combination out of the gearbox on both sides. Disconnect speedo drive from gearbox.

    Undo the gearbox-engine mounting bolts. Put a jack underneath the sump (with a block of wood to protect the sump, of course). Undo the gearbox mounting bolt (under where the battery tray would have been) and lower engine/gearbox assembly down. It will tilt down for you. Then slide the gearbox off! Easy!

    Installation is reversal of the above procedure.

    About 8 hours work all up (gearbox out, change seal, gearbox back in).

    While you're in there, there are a couple of plastic plugs in the ends of some of the oil galleries in the motor. Check that they are all intact and not leaking. Also check of course the usual things that are impossible to get to otherwise (clutch, flywheel surface, spigot bearing and thrust bearing).
    Scotty

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  5. #5
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    Default crank case pressure?

    Thanks guys for your advice.
    Alan: Given the cost of trained labour the engine crane and leveller will cost about half what it would cost to have the gerabox out to do the seal professionally! And they will surely be useful again in the future...!

    When I had the gearbox out last time, Scott , I also dropped the suspension subframe as per the Haynes instructions and I do not think it could be done otherwise..

    The clutch seems fine so far Shane ( I was able to drop a wheelie on dry asphalt this evening - not something I usually do but I was interested in how the clutch was holding up... ) but I guess that the fine spray from oil flung out by the flywheel will eventually do its worst....

    There is still a question in my mind as to whether the engine/gearbox will actually clear the passenger side engine mount and the Aircon pipes or is this what you mean by ä few strange angles" Alan?

    Finally is there a possibility that excessive crank case pressure has caused the seal to fail or is it relatively normal in an XU10 with 180000Km on it..?

    thanks again
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  6. #6
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    There shouldn't be too much crankcase pressure at 180K klms unless the breather pipes are incorrectly fitted or blocked. Most of these engines at that mileage will be still showing hone marks in the cylinders.
    The odd angles I talked about come about due to the whole show needing to be dropped at one end and lifted almost vertically to clear I think it's the front strut mount. Using an engine crane and leveller makes this a breeze as you can move it slowly and just simply wind the handle on the leveller to rais or lower whichever end is required.
    Drain all oils before you start and disconnect the air/con compressor from the engine (crankcase) and carefully lower it out of the way. If it won't reach the ground, just sit it on something to support it as I don't like seeing them suspended by the hoses, but rest assured, those hoses are extremely robust and are capable of a fair amount of abuse (even though it might be frowned upon by a 'by the book' tradesman.)
    It's a fiddly arsed job that requires a roll of masking tape and a pen when dismantling to mark all wires and plugs, and if you've not done it before, a sheet of paper writing and numbering everything as you disconnect it. This then becomes a check sheet as you reassemble which is where I think Haynes got the terminology "reassembly is the reversal of removal" as I suspect they did the same thing in instances where they did the strip down they so proudly talk about.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  7. #7
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    Default Thanks alan

    Thanks again for your contribution and advice alan.

    reckon I will buy the engine leveller and either buy or rent an engine crane and go the lift it all out option so I can do all the seals..

    Cheers

    Trev.
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  8. #8
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trevh
    Thanks again for your contribution and advice alan.

    reckon I will buy the engine leveller and either buy or rent an engine crane and go the lift it all out option so I can do all the seals..

    Cheers

    Trev.
    Check the prices to hire first and I think you'll opt to purchase as they often tend to want as much for a week's hire as it costs to buy.
    If it's on hire, you are then stuck with a time frame which can be a problem if you hit a snag or on a positive note, with renting it tends to make you want to keep going until it's finished rather than leave it until the next weekend.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! amcc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu
    I have removed the gearbox on a S1 Mi16 to change the clutch, and I've removed the auto transmission from a S2 405 to change the engine rear oil seal. I've also taken motors out by themselves, and also engine and gearbox as a complete unit.

    If all you want to do it replace the rear seal, just remove the gearbox. It's actually not a bad job (much harder with the auto's, because the transmission weighs about 7,432 times more ).

    Remove battery and tray, airflow meter and filter, disconnect clutch cable, reversing light switch, gear linkages. There's a few other little cables and hoses clamped to the gearbox you'll need to move as well. Jack car up and put on engine stands, as high as you can get it to go. Take off both front wheels, undo intermediate driveshaft bearing carrier on back of engine (next to lower engine mount), undo kingpin bolts, then slide the entire wheel/driveshaft combination out of the gearbox on both sides. Disconnect speedo drive from gearbox.

    Undo the gearbox-engine mounting bolts. Put a jack underneath the sump (with a block of wood to protect the sump, of course). Undo the gearbox mounting bolt (under where the battery tray would have been) and lower engine/gearbox assembly down. It will tilt down for you. Then slide the gearbox off! Easy!

    Installation is reversal of the above procedure.

    About 8 hours work all up (gearbox out, change seal, gearbox back in).

    While you're in there, there are a couple of plastic plugs in the ends of some of the oil galleries in the motor. Check that they are all intact and not leaking. Also check of course the usual things that are impossible to get to otherwise (clutch, flywheel surface, spigot bearing and thrust bearing).


    all good instructions in my opinion.

    a few extras to consider

    MAKE SHRE THE TOP ENGINE MOUNT IS IN GOOD CONDITION OTHERWISE THIS WILL END IN TEARS!!! THE HOLE ENGINE AND GEARBOX COULD, IF IT DECIDED IT WANTED TO, TRY TO ESCAPE OUT THE BOTTOM OF THE CAR!!

    clutch alignment tool makes life easyer and replace drive shaft seals, also in my opinion it is a good idea to drop the sub frame. 2 bolts take the rack off the frame and 6 take the frame off the car. do this before u lower the gearbox.

    have fun and good luck!
    French - 92 205mi16, 87 205gti and spares
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  10. #10
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    Default update & pcv valve

    I have purchase the engine leveller as suggested alan. I will look into the engine crane - I have to admit it looks like a good excuse to get one and I have a couple of mates who I know will make good use of it too.

    I checked the PCV valve yesterday. this is the black plastic device just in front of the oil filler about 70 mm in diameter. it was full of water! and creamy oily emusion. after cleaning it out I can see a spring inside but it is completely open - no suggestion of any diagphragm or one-way valving. Does this device have a PCV valve function? if so should I replace it. if not what is its function? It actually has a tiny drain hole which must suck unfiltered air?! My neighbour who also has a S2 Mi16 actually had oil dripping out of his onto the top of the radiator so he sealed it up....

    The actual oil leak seems to have reduced a little compared to when i first saw it... the rate of loss is not dangerous - perhaps .5 litre per 500 Km - so I have a little time to plan getting it done.. it is messy and, since I use Shell helix ultra at nearly $10 per litre, not cheap but at least I can use the car..

    One option I thought of to give me a bit more time was one of the stopleak additives that replasticise the seals and allow them to flex and seal again. Has anybody tried these and did they work?

    Cheers

    Trevor
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    It's far easier to drop the whole engine/box assembly out the bottom than it is to lift it out.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Fellow Frogger! Kyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    It's far easier to drop the whole engine/box assembly out the bottom than it is to lift it out.
    Now there's a prefectly good excuse to buy a four post car hoist if i ever heard one

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    Default practicalities please

    peter,

    What are the practicalties?

    IE problems with the lift out compared with ease of drop out?

    I have had the gearbox out so I am up with the need to drop the suspension subframe.

    How high do you need to get the front end to allow for the engine and gerabox to be moved out?
    Do you still use an engine lifter or jack(s) to lower the engine?
    once on the floor how do you move the engine/gerabox assembly out from under the car? Dragging it across the concrete floor does not appeal.
    Can the lowering be done without degassing the aircon?


    I look forward to your feedback.

    Cheers

    Trevor
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    You need 650mm (approx.) clearance under the front of the car.

    Once all the fluids are drained, driveshafts removed, exhaust flange unbolted, cables removed, you can lower the engine using a hoist/crane.

    I drop it onto a piece of masonite, then slide the lot out.

    Yes, you'll probably need to degass the A/C if done this way.

    Make sure you remove the oil temp. sender before lowering it to the ground.

    Installation is the reverse. Lift the engine up until the gearbox mount engages, then screw on a nut. Once this end is secure, install the other two mounts.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    It's far easier to drop the whole engine/box assembly out the bottom than it is to lift it out.
    Ill second this method, no you dont need to degass the aircon if you remove the compressor and the pipes that join to it from the motor otherwise it goes bang. I would undo the struts, and the front subframe and drop it. As PT says about 650 is good and a pretty good height to work at as a benefit. I lowered the lot onto the legs of the crane and unhooked it then wheeled it out the drivers side through the wheel arch. DO THE CAM BELT WHILE IT IS OUT as it is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo easy rather than struggling to fit your hands between the side of the car and the motor.
    Neil
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    There's no need to drop the sub-frame if done as suggested. You will also find it a lot easier if you remove the radiator and slam panel.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  17. #17
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    FWIW, we have a "dolly" with 4 small castor type wheels on it.
    Drop it on there and just roll it out.
    The Dolly is a homemade variety made of structural ply about 700+mm square and about 10/14mm thick on swivelling castors about 50mm diameter. Total cost less than $10. We also have one of those 4 wheel low load type trolleys from SuperCheap that would also do the job.
    Anything that reduces lifting and makes life easier is always good value.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  18. #18
    Cal
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    I have this job to look forward to in the very near future.

    Cal.
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Have a leaky rear main on the 406 myself

    But I have no shed, only a driveway with grass down the middle, its cold, I cant be stuffed etc etc... , so for the first time EVER I am getting someone else to do surgery on my car.

    Plus I am getting a good price on the labour as it popped the seal less than 10K km past the warrenty, and they are being pretty fair about it.

    If I had a nice garage, and it wasnt so bloody cold, I would take all this good advice and have a crack at it myself. Next time maybe...
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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