Tubeless tyre repair
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  1. #1
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    Default Tubeless tyre repair

    Howdy,

    My wife's car, with its brand spanking new tyres, has just picked up a nail (a clout) in a tyre.

    Now, I'm aware of tubeless tyre repair kits, but are they OK? Safe to use? Are there any better ones, or are they all 'much of a muchness'? Or should I take it to a tyre joint? Questions, questions...

    Thanks

    Stuey

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Tubeless tyre repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    Howdy,

    My wife's car, with its brand spanking new tyres, has just picked up a nail (a clout) in a tyre.

    Now, I'm aware of tubeless tyre repair kits, but are they OK? Safe to use? Are there any better ones, or are they all 'much of a muchness'? Or should I take it to a tyre joint? Questions, questions...

    Thanks

    Stuey
    Stuey,
    I'm not sure whether the rubber plug repair is still around. A plug with a mushroom head was inserted via an air gun.
    The other type, a kit with sealant, a needle and a wick. The hole is located and lubricated with the sealant, the wick is fitted to the needle then forced into the tyre.
    The latter type can still be purchased, K Mart etc so they must meet a standard of sorts. I would use them.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i carry a kit of the wick (rabbit ears) in the car with me

    if i get a puncture i dash out of the car and file out the hole and insert the wick, twist and pull out

    wait a minute and then cut the ears off but leave al ittle hanging out and off you go again

    if you are lucky you can catch the tyre before all the air retreats and you can leave it on the car and pump her up and the next servo or stick your ciggy lighter powered pump on and then off you go

    i have used these things on cars, trucks and earthmovers and never a drama

    all good truckies carry a kit with them and repair on the spot and carry on again
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    Default Tubeless patch

    Stuey

    Last time I had similar, I took mine to a tyre specialist and had an internal wall patch fitted a few years back now. Had no worries with that and it wasn't expensive even with the tyre rebalanced afterward.

    Had no problems with the external rubber plug and glue fix years ago, but thought that had gone out, or been outlawed. Never had one of them fail either, so the Kmart fix may be o.k.

    Used to be a toss up on fitting a new tube or either repair, the cost seemed to be about the same, however with the tubes leaks would occur eventually as small pieces of metal worked their way through the tread in service - this didn't seem to be a problem with the tubeless repair.

    Ken

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    please people do not run tubes in tubeless tyres

    they create a lot of friction=heat and they can blow

    next time you have a tyre lying around have a look inside it and you will see raised beads all the way around the inside of it, these rub on the tube and cause the above

    either fix the tubeless tyre or replace it if it is too bad or sidewall damage

    life is too precious to risk
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    please people do not run tubes in tubeless tyres

    they create a lot of friction=heat and they can blow
    Well that is something I didn't know. With the old Pug I thought the rims were all out of kilter and causing problems in sealing the tubless so I was thinking of that as an alternative ... need a new rim or get the tyre re-sealed and see what happens.

    I have noticed quite a few roadside puncture repair kits in 4WD magazines. They appear to be fairly highly developed and it appears wothwhile carrying.

    Peter J.
    PJ

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    Default

    Thanks for the replies. Rambo, no worries, I know about the negatives of tubes.

    Fortunately the nail is on the tread area, so I think it'll fix up OK.

    Ken, I remember some type of tubeless repair being banned. I just couldn't remember which, hence this thread. I seem to remember that it was only repairs not in the tread area that were banned, where there was sidewall damage.

    My Dad used to fix loads of them when we had the roadhouse with a Power Plus brand rubber plug arrangement, inserted with a bradawl type tool and using glue of some sort.

    Again, thanks. I'll go down to SuperCheap tomorrow and have a look around.

    Stuey


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    i think it was $11 last time i got a plug put in a tyre.......

    i cant help but ask? why bother mucking around buying kits and stuffing around with filing holes and glueing etc.?

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123abc
    i think it was $11 last time i got a plug put in a tyre.......

    i cant help but ask? why bother mucking around buying kits and stuffing around with filing holes and glueing etc.?

    because you can do it yourself anywhere, anytime
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


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    Quote Originally Posted by 123abc
    i think it was $11 last time i got a plug put in a tyre.......

    i cant help but ask? why bother mucking around buying kits and stuffing around with filing holes and glueing etc.?
    If your in the middle of the nowhere and holed both spares??

    That is the reason I mentioned 4WD kits that are available. Could be a life saver?
    PJ

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    And if you don't have one, and you carry a tyre lever and some black Silastic, you can peel the tyre half off the rim, degrease (there's often a waxy substance on the inner surface) the area around the hole, lavish the Silastic onto it and into the hole, slip a thin piece of plastic bag over it (or newspaper or something), whack the tyre back on and pump it up.

    I've only ever struck one puncture that couldn't be repaired this way...

    By the way, those ribbings inside the tyre, they used to be there on many a tube-type tyre as well. I doubt that tubes in tyres get any hotter in tubeless tyres than they do in tube-type tyres anyway.

  12. #12
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    Default Can you find a definitive advice on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    please people do not run tubes in tubeless tyres

    they create a lot of friction=heat and they can blow

    next time you have a tyre lying around have a look inside it and you will see raised beads all the way around the inside of it, these rub on the tube and cause the above

    either fix the tubeless tyre or replace it if it is too bad or sidewall damage

    life is too precious to risk
    Pugrambo
    I have heard those comments a few times but wondered if that was an urban myth, had a quick look at manufacturers websites but could only find this quote on a Dunlop site.

    http://www.driveradviser.com/tyre/guide.shtml

    If you have one issued by another manufacturer, it would be a help, seeing the issue has been raised.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    Pugrambo
    I have heard those comments a few times but wondered if that was an urban myth, had a quick look at manufacturers websites but could only find this quote on a Dunlop site.

    http://www.driveradviser.com/tyre/guide.shtml

    If you have one issued by another manufacturer, it would be a help, seeing the issue has been raised.

    Ken

    http://www.fastlane.com.au/Safety/Go..._Xmas_tips.htm

    and another from michelin

    Another definite mistake is to fit a tube inside tubeless steel belted radial ply tyre as a means of solving a puncture.

    According to Michelin, fitting a tube is an emergency measure only as driving for even a short time without the puncture sealed from the outside will allow rust to start within the tyre construction. If the tube is punctured it will lose pressure almost instantaneously causing rapid failure. A tubeless tyre is inherently safer because if punctured it will generally lose pressure slowly over some hours.

    When a steel-belted radial tyre is punctured, moisture can enter the tyre casing and cause rusting of the steel wire and eventual breakage. Having made a thorough internal inspection of the tyre to ensure the tyre casing has not been damaged, it should be repaired only by your local Michelin tyre specialist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    Pugrambo
    I have heard those comments a few times but wondered if that was an urban myth, had a quick look at manufacturers websites but could only find this quote on a Dunlop site.

    http://www.driveradviser.com/tyre/guide.shtml

    If you have one issued by another manufacturer, it would be a help, seeing the issue has been raised.

    Ken

    i worked as a tyre fitter for a short period to help out a mate years back and it was actually illegal to fit tubes to tubeless tyres and if caught when something has gone wrong with the fitment the fitter is liable

    best to get it right in the first place, they are tubeless for a reason

    some of the motorsport people should know as well about tubes in tubeless tyres as they would generate much more heat than normal road users
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Some Michelin tube type tyres that I pulled off the other week had ribs on the inner surface so that may not be the telling point of whether tubes can be fitted or not. I'm wondering if it is to do with the inner lining of the tyre. Tubeless tyres usually have a soft pliable inner butyl rubber lining to seal around the perforating object like a screw or nail. This "stickier" surface may end up causing the extra friction with a tube with the possibility of a blowout. The tube type tyres seem to have a different, generally harder rubber, inside lining.

    This may also be the reason why on the Dunlop site they mention that a tube can be fitted to certain Dunlop tyres because they may have a low friction internal rubber lining.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    Some Michelin tube type tyres that I pulled off the other week had ribs on the inner surface so that may not be the telling point of whether tubes can be fitted or not. I'm wondering if it is to do with the inner lining of the tyre. Tubeless tyres usually have a soft pliable inner butyl rubber lining to seal around the perforating object like a screw or nail. This "stickier" surface may end up causing the extra friction with a tube with the possibility of a blowout. The tube type tyres seem to have a different, generally harder rubber, inside lining.

    This may also be the reason why on the Dunlop site they mention that a tube can be fitted to certain Dunlop tyres because they may have a low friction internal rubber lining.

    i know it had something to do with added friction in tubeless tyres that tubes are not allowed to be used unless in an emergency

    best to be safe than sorry

    there is a difference between tube and tubeless tyres though

    thanks Simon
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Quote Originally Posted by 123abc
    i think it was $11 last time i got a plug put in a tyre.......

    i cant help but ask? why bother mucking around buying kits and stuffing around with filing holes and glueing etc.?
    Because they're not open tomorrow.


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    Default Interesting how things develop!

    Thanks pugrambo and Simon

    Obviously it seems that the rusting of the steel mesh is the basis for the warning, I presume that the Dunlop one is also a steel mesh tyre and the others rayon or other synthetic.

    Stuey we also had that power plus kit with the hooked needle and I suppose that insertion of the glued plug would prevent most moisture from penetrating to the steel mesh. I know that there was a real issue for outback drivers with removing a tyre cover in the bush as it was almost impossible to get an air seal using a foot pump.

    Years ago I saw an invention made up by a retired Reverend Gentleman that consisted of a set of chains to go around the circumference to spring the edges against the tyre well as it was racheted up and it also had a function for breaking the tyre bead away to help removal of the tyre. (Noack was his surname)

    The early tubeless were hard to remove with even good tyre levers I reckon the bloke that invented that simple device to peg the wheel and peel off the tyre with a long lever did a great service to all with his invention.

    Ken

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    You're right, Ken, 'rambo has virtually ignored the intent of your question and gone off on another tangent... that relating to possible rust...

    The link he cites has the same warning, nothing about heat buildup:

    According to BFGoodrich, fitting a tube to a tubeless tyre is an emergency measure only as driving for even a short time without the puncture sealed from the outside will allow rust to start within the tyre construction.

    When a tube is fitted to a tubed or tubeless tyre it will lose pressure almost instantaneously if the tube is punctured and can cause a rapid failure. Compare this dangerous scenario with a punctured tubeless tyre which generally loses pressure slowly over some hours. This is why a tubeless tyre is inherently safer.
    And, of course, the issue of rapid pressure loss is almost the same as tube-type tyres, with the exception that it might revert to deflating as slowly as a tubeless with a puncture (or two...) with some benefits.

    Once again, I have definitely seen tube-type tyres with those ribs inside them, so they aren't an issue.

    I also recall that years ago there was a flurry at the tyre fitters' whenever they had to fit a tube to a Dunlop tubeless (which they routinely did... and I don't think it's illegal, as 'rambo claims) because they had to find a 'genuine rubber' tube or something like that. Not all tubes were used there.

    If anyone can give a definitive answer on the legality of fitting a tube, I'd appreciate it... much better than having more wrong information propogated from this website.

  20. #20
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    Default No real issue

    Ray

    I have no real issue with anyone relating something they learned in their workplace,I know that much valuable information I have learned over the years, I have just accepted as reasonable and logical.

    I am a bit puzzled by the friction/heat build up, it seems to go against my own experience with tubes and tubeless tyres. I can't see that in ordinary service the outer case once seated against the rim wall will then rotate to create friction on the tube. [race tyres on mag wheels excluded as race conditions may ascerbate]

    The tube is of course tightly inflated inside the tyre and the ribbing (byproduct of the bias construction?) may actually assist it to resist/hold it to the tyre and reduce friction caused by rotational force.

    I am interested by the idea of using a rubber tube as against butyl tubes as some conflict of materials may indeed effect heat buildup and dissipation rates for the two materials. If this is so you would expect that in the hotter countries failures due to this factor would lead to media and industry reports.

    The earliest reference I could find that specifically mentions the internal ribs and heat build up causing tube failure came from a renault r4 site in the UK there was no reference to any tyre company information to back the claim.

    It would be interesting to nail this one down,once and for all. (pun intended ) -

    Funny I accepted the claim that the plug repair kits had been outlawed and I am sure that this information was given by the Tyre repair firm that patched the inner wall of my tubeless tyre and that tyre certainly wore out without any problem, so I took that info as gospel.

    Hopefully we will get some additional information (please no hassles) as I hate to see good tyres junked for no real reason.

    Regards Ken
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 31st July 2005 at 10:13 AM. Reason: inserted race tyres on mag wheels excluded of course.

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    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    because you can do it yourself anywhere, anytime

    yes i relise this, i have changed 4x4 tyres myself in the middle of nowhere....

    but stuey mentioned that he'll check out super cheap, so if there is a super cheap near by, there must be a tyre shop near by also.

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    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    Because they're not open tomorrow.

    thats quite understandable......but surely you can live on a spare for a few days.............

    i was mearly asking why one would by a kit to do something that probabley costs the same to have it done by someone else, thats all.......

    ah well, before this turns into an arguement, ill say that its a case of each-to-their-own, and if you need it right now then ya need it right now.

  23. #23
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    No worries 123. I'm just a bit pushed for time at the moment during the week, that's all, which is why I'd just rather get it over with. I'd suggest that the kit would probably be more than $11 but would fix quite a number of punctures.

    BTW all, I can distinctly remember my Dad saying that you can't put tubes in a tubeless tyre and I'm 50/50 that I remember him saying that it was illegal. I'd like to know the proper answer as well. I'll ask him, but I'm not sure if he'll remember the exact reason.

    Incidentally, even though he drove Aussie V8's, he always ripped the tyres off of them and fitted Michelins. Every car he had (and there were plenty).

    As for bead breaking, he had an inertia breaker which is a thick rod with a chisel end with a heavy metal sleeve over it, which was rammed down onto the rod. This was placed on the bead to knock it off the rim. And there was also a hand version of what they have now - a large lever on a floor mounted contraption that gave mechanical advantage to pushing down on the bead via a curved blade that fitted the bead.

    Stuey


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    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Over here, tubes will not be fitted to tubeless tyres.
    Tyre fitters, like everybody else, attend training courses from time to time, and it seems fitting a tube to a tubeless tyre to fix a puncture has been a no-no for a few years.
    Yet, like most people on training courses, they assume that "teacher knows best". And as much as we hate to admit it, "teacher" usually does know best.
    "Teacher" must get his knowledge/training from somewhere and that is presumably from the tyre industry, which is probably overseen by some government office, or E.U. body.
    They will no doubt have heaps of statistics to justify the lesson.

    But on the shopping channel last night somebody was selling gooey stuff that you put in your tyres through the valve that seals a puncture almost immediately.
    It seemed to work, but is it safe?



    Mike

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    straight from ATMA (australian tyres manufacturers association)

    c) Susceptibility to Tyre Fires
    Ever since the introduction of tubeless radial-ply tyres, the risks of tyre fires and/or selfignition
    of tyres due to excessive heat have been rendered virtually nonexistent.
    With tubeless radial-ply tyres, there is no “tube and flap” which could cause friction and,
    therefore, heat to be generated.
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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