splutter, splutter..stop ti
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default splutter, splutter..stop ti

    Any of you fellows who might have a similar problem with a ti?

    Car has driven fine for months and three days ago began to starve under throttle and quickly got to the point where it would only drive at idle, 2nd gear at 10 kph, 3rd at 20 kph, 4th at 30 and now it won't do a thing but start and stall under clutch.

    Spoke today with Scott, he who lives at the centre of the universe, and he with a bit of checking says fuel pump. So in an attempt to gain a second opinion;

    please have your say ......

    are the pumps rebuildable?

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    could it be something else?

    solutions to this problem please.... my 13 yo and I are without transport on the most important day of the school holidays.

    ed ge

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Any of you fellows who might have a similar problem with a ti?

    Car has driven fine for months and three days ago began to starve under throttle and quickly got to the point where it would only drive at idle, 2nd gear at 10 kph, 3rd at 20 kph, 4th at 30 and now it won't do a thing but start and stall under clutch.

    Spoke today with Scott, he who lives at the centre of the universe, and he with a bit of checking says fuel pump. So in an attempt to gain a second opinion;

    please have your say ......

    are the pumps rebuildable?

    could it be something else?

    solutions to this problem please.... my 13 yo and I are without transport on the most important day of the school holidays.

    ed ge
    I'd go with lack of fuel. Check the filters aren't blocked and the lines aren't kinked. Mine used to do exactly that when the tank got low as the pickup wasn't quite on the bottom of the tank.
    You could probably use an EFI pump off just about anything as the pump is more of a delivery pump than a pressure pump. The genuine pumps are getting hard to source and have a price to suit.

    Jarrod

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i'd say a filter change is in order

    beware of using an EFI pump as they run at much higher pressures than the TI pumps

    also another thing to check is the throttle cable as they can fall off
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  4. #4
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I had a mate with a CX that did exactly that and after many dollars and hours by the "experts" I arrived for an operation and prior to going under the knife replaced the filter. It went well for a few days and then fell in a heap again.
    Next time I used a larger better quality filter (not a Ryco throwaway type) and we all lived happily ever after.
    I didn't have much choice but to get it right as the guy had to have a car to drive me home which was 400 klms away and on crutches I was never going to walk.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i'd say a filter change is in order

    beware of using an EFI pump as they run at much higher pressures than the TI pumps

    also another thing to check is the throttle cable as they can fall off
    Isn't the pressure created by restricting the flow with a fuel pressure regulator. With no regulator and very little restriction you will have high flow but not much pressure

    Please correct me if i'm wrong.

    Jarrod

  6. #6
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrods
    Isn't the pressure created by restricting the flow with a fuel pressure regulator. With no regulator and very little restriction you will have high flow but not much pressure

    Please correct me if i'm wrong.

    Jarrod

    having tried EFI pumps on TI's before they tend to blow hoses off due to there bieng too much pressure

    there is a restriction in the line to create pressure for the system to work but the system is only designed for relatively low pressure for an injection system

    having hoses blow off is a very uncomfortable experience

    the lines just aren't designed for the pressures that EFI pumps can obtain
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Fuel pressure from the electric pump is something like 25 or 33 psi, IIRC. There are some lift pumps for EFI that are around the same... Camira, I think, is one...

    But the problem here is undoubtedly the fuel filter, probably the little one just out of the tank. I have to replace mine every 25,000kms or so, though it doesn't get that bad.

    First check, then, is to change the filter at the back. If there's no improvement, change the front one. Also drain the front filter into some kind of container so you can check for water in the fuel.

  8. #8
    Member eatpeople04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrods
    I'd go with lack of fuel. Check the filters aren't blocked and the lines aren't kinked. Mine used to do exactly that when the tank got low as the pickup wasn't quite on the bottom of the tank.
    You could probably use an EFI pump off just about anything as the pump is more of a delivery pump than a pressure pump. The genuine pumps are getting hard to source and have a price to suit.

    Jarrod
    I'd second this.

    My brother's Ti had a similar problem, and filter change seemed to fix it.

    Now it runs with the genuine inline filter, as well as a cheap throw away one on the line. Can't remeber what the rationalisation for the second filter was, but usually that is the first port of call if the car starts to run dodgily again
    eatpeople04

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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Thanks so far fellows,

    had replaced first filter myself 2 months ago, today took off filter bowl from firewall, much muck, cleaned out, this filter is apparantly unavailable in Adelaide, will get one from Melbourne monday.

    So started car and got it home, but only just, initially 65 in 4th gear, then 60 then 50 then 40 nothing above idle in other gears.

    Muck in lift pump?, how much of this is home serviceable?

    ed ge

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Thanks so far fellows,

    had replaced first filter myself 2 months ago, today took off filter bowl from firewall, much muck, cleaned out, this filter is apparantly unavailable in Adelaide, will get one from Melbourne monday.

    So started car and got it home, but only just, initially 65 in 4th gear, then 60 then 50 then 40 nothing above idle in other gears.

    Muck in lift pump?, how much of this is home serviceable?

    ed ge
    It would pay to check the other filter as well. My ex brother in law used to have a car and he had to change the filter once a week due to rust in the petrol tank.

    Jarrod

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    no rust problem, filter passed visual inspection.

    ed ge

  12. #12
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    no rust problem, filter passed visual inspection.

    ed ge

    is that the pre filter at the pump ?

    if so we had a car that would go through these filters every couple of days

    in the end we got sick of it and replaced the tank with a good clean one and the problem never recured but we still had to replace the filter every 15-20k km's which is quite normal

    TI's are very touchy with fuel delivery and must have clean fuel

    also never let the tank run down to the dregs as you will pick up all the crap that is concentrated in the bottom of the tank
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Not that old phurphy again!

    The garbage is near the pickup all the time, it can go in whether the tank is empty or full... and it will.

    As is well known, my car runs out of fuel all the time. I have no extraordinary problem with junk in the fuel.

    I repeat... low tank levels make no difference to how much junk goes into the pickup. The only thing that alters that is how much junk there is in the tank to go into the pickup!

    Unless the junk floats, that is. Rust doesn't float, dirt doesn't float, water doesn't float.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! James504's Avatar
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    Can you hear the pump coming on when itís on ignition? If not check your fuse box. More specifically check fuse #3 it controls your fuel pump. I've very recently had a similar sounding problem with my lti. It kept blowing fuse 3 when being revved. Turns out it wasn't even the pump, but the thermostatically controlled a/c fan which is on the same bridge as the efi pump, earthing in the bay. But no fuse means no pump, so the car wonít start. It was very miss leading.

    In regards to the pump, itís a sealed pump. So if you take it apart, itís not going to go back again. Also I talked to French motor, and French car care here in bris, they both said they have never had to sell a fuel pump for a ti engined 504.
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Yes, inspected found muck, cleaned, pre filter on firewall, now driving without filter, drives same as with filter yesterday.

    Car has run faultlessly for two months, ran kind of low on fuel tuesday put in $20 95 pulp + valvemaster. Next day problems began. Checked fuel for water, no water.

    In-line filter has done only 2000kms.

    Still concerned for muck accumulated in lift pump.

    ed ge

    sorry had a long visit/or

    can hear fuel pump working ok
    Last edited by edgedweller; 24th July 2005 at 02:10 AM.

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by James504
    Can you hear the pump coming on when itís on ignition? If not check your fuse box. More specifically check fuse #3 it controls your fuel pump. I've very recently had a similar sounding problem with my lti. It kept blowing fuse 3 when being revved. Turns out it wasn't even the pump, but the thermostatically controlled a/c fan which is on the same bridge as the efi pump, earthing in the bay. But no fuse means no pump, so the car wonít start. It was very misleading.
    I had that problem with my automatic car too, though it didn't blow any fuse, it started wires smouldering as soon as it reached temperature. There was another (foreign... no idea what) wire off a piggyback clip on the temp sensor at the bottom of the radiator and I removed it, solved the problem.

    .....In regards to the pump, itís a sealed pump. So if you take it apart, itís not going to go back again. Also I talked to French motor, and French car care here in bris, they both said they have never had to sell a fuel pump for a TI engined 504.
    Ironically, the first TI I ever had was a near-new one back in the late seventies... bought it burned out to get some parts from it for myself. But I told Norm Saville I had it and he immediately offered me fairly big money for the electric pump. Told me they were very expensive and that he'd struck problems with them.

    Maybe all the crook ones have gone?

    I had one fail on me about four years ago.

  17. #17
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Yes, inspected found muck, cleaned, pre filter on firewall, now driving without filter, drives same as with filter yesterday.

    Car has run faultlessly for two months, ran kind of low on fuel tuesday put in $20 95 pulp + valvemaster. Next day problems began. Checked fuel for water, no water.

    In-line filter has done only 2000kms.

    Still concerned for muck accumulated in lift pump.

    ed ge

    sorry had a long visit/or

    can hear fuel pump working ok
    underneath the pump there are 4 plugs and they each contain a gauze filter

    pull each plug out and clean the filters out

    let me know how you go

    i'd say you have picked up a lot of the gunk from the bottom of the tank
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    could it be something else?

    solutions to this problem please.... my 13 yo and I are without transport on the most important day of the school holidays.

    ed ge

    I'm probably wrong, I'm used to it by now, but I had a similar problem years ago with a Hillman. Turned out the condenser was giving up the ghost.
    Might be worth a try? Cheap / simple enough.



    Mike.
    Last edited by catshamlet; 24th July 2005 at 10:57 AM. Reason: too many was's! and an it too many!

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Thanks Rambo,

    finally found those those pesky gauze filters, easy to get at yeah, not as dirty as I had hoped but better now for the cleaning, no time to test before going to work so will reply as to any improvements at approx 2am, I'm sure you'll all stay up, presuming the cricket lasts that long.

    Catsie, thoughtful tip, first thing I looked at to see if problem was electrical, opened points out a fraction, all ok thanks. Hey do you live in a lion park, wildlife reserve or zoo perchance?

    Regards, thanks to all contributors.

    ed ge

  20. #20
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    lol

    i never said they would be easy to get to

    be interested in how it goes but you will still need to put a new element in the firewall filter and probably replace the pre filter at the pump to catch any more gunk

    a good dose of fuel system cleaner wouldn't go astray either

    let me know how it all goes in minute detail and if need be i'll diagnose it further
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  21. #21
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    Default Not familiar with your car but

    Sounds from the posts that this is an electrical fuel pump. You have checked all the filters, but there could still be a fair bit of muck in your tank and as you ran the vehicle without filters, some of that muck could be in the jetting? system, not a good idea to do that.

    Better to run the pump without filtering in place and see what it delivers into a clear container, when the muck stops coming, flush the tank again with some fresh fuel and run this through the pump, when you find the fuel nice and clear replace all filters and hopefully you wont have the trouble again.

    Sounds like you got a crook batch of dirty fuel at your last fill.

    Ken

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    He does still have one filter in place... the inline filter just out of the tank...

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Given that this happened suddenly, maybe you bought a tank full of water at your last fill up.

    Jarrod

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Smells and tastes like petrol, looks like weak wee, I mean Tea.

    Made it to work and back, 22k's, nice and easy down hill, beginning to explore limits uphill. Slightly improved, would like to drain entire system.

    Interestingly, degassing filter, on fire wall, without paper element, shows no detritus after use.

    Still plugging away.

    ed ge

  25. #25
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If there's any risk of water, just dump a bit of methanol in the tank with the petrol before you start changing filters, that way you get it through the system before you start messing up the new filters if in fact moisture exists in the system.
    An old trick I learnt when we used to do the outback runs years ago when petrol was of unknown vintage and % H2o was a variable taken as a certainty to be in there somewhere.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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