Idle and Starting - possibly Heat related.
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Default Idle and Starting - possibly Heat related.

    Hi All,

    As most that reply to me are somewhat aware. I got myself a 405 Mi16 about 6 months ago. And I am slowly fixing things.... this hasn't made things better, because one thing gets fixed, something else breaks.

    Anyway, the latest mood the Pug got itself into was last night. When sitting in traffic, it heats up as usual. Thermo fans turn on as they should.

    Then the idle goes down to what looks like 500RPM. Eventually, after about 5-8 cycles of the engine heating up, thermo fans running, then cooling down... the idle starts to drop lower then 500RPM. Then starts to look like its about to stall.

    Then the revs start to jump up and down, like it gets really low revs, then blips the throttle. Then goes back down, and over and over again.

    If it is turned off, and you try and restart the engine, it won't. Not until it cools down alittle. Then it starts first go, as per normal.

    The injects are to be cleaned really soon, and maybe this weekend I will be changing the oil, spark plugs, leads, filters. etc. Just giving it a home service job. In a few weeks time, it will be getting a new timing belt.

    Any help pointing in the right direction in regards to the bad idle and stalling/not starting issues will be great.

    If it were carbi'd I could figure it out, since this is where I learned about things many years ago on motorcycles. EFI is just not my bag.

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    pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

  2. #2
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Alternator OK?

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    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    In regards to it working fine? Yes it is charging and the amperes are looking good too.

    I've checked both output voltage and amps, as you can sometimes still have the volts, but no forward current. And both are ok.

    I'd like to know why you ask about the alternator though? what would this have to do with the issue I am having?

    pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Sounds like a severe voltage drop happening somewhere. Next time it happens, check the voltage at the coil and compare it to the battery.

    The voltage at the coil is indicative of the ECU, injectors etc., as it's all in the same harness, originating at wire #2 in the large black rectangular connector, behind the LH headlight.

    Also check that there is layer of heat transfer compound behind the Bosch ignition module.

    If you identify a significant difference in voltage between the coil and the battery, let me know.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  5. #5
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    A lot of people seem to assume the fuel delivery is suspect when in fact the electricals are making it difficult to deliver the fuel. It's an update of "If you think it's the carb, it's the ignition and vice-versa". The situation described, pointed to changing current demands on the motor corresponding with fuel delivery issues.

    Regards, Adam.

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    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Ahhh, now I get what you're pointing at. Cheers. Next time it happens I will check it out.

    pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    may I suggest checking the battery terminals worth a shot.

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    On the BX16V there's a multi plug, two in fact, under the battery that tend to get corrosion on their contacts. Working on the assumption that these have a similar set up which I'm pretty sure they have, seperate the plugs, spray the terminals both M & F with contact spray (note Contact spray..... not WD40) and reassemble.
    Also, next time it decides to carry on like this, grab the lead that runs to the starter solenoid and hit it on the + terminal on the battery and see if there's any improvement with the starter. If there's degradation in the wiring from the ignition switch or if long term this has damaged the solenoid or starter section of the switch, this eliminates those possiblities or gives you a reason to upgrade by fitting a relay and/or a seperate switch to operate the starter.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Hang on, maybe I said something incorrectly.

    The engine cranks over just fine when this is happening, just doesn't start... when it stalls. Which is does because the revs just keep dropping the longer it sits in the hot zone, ie: driving in bumper to bumper traffic.

    pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

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    Pips, FYI the relevance of Alan's posting above is that the Citroen BX16V has the same motor as your Mi16, with only a slightly different installation.

    Stu


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pips
    Hang on, maybe I said something incorrectly.

    The engine cranks over just fine when this is happening, just doesn't start... when it stalls. Which is does because the revs just keep dropping the longer it sits in the hot zone, ie: driving in bumper to bumper traffic.

    pips
    Hi Pips, I didn't mean to imply the car wasn't cranking over, but from my experience a loose/coroded battery terminal can have some effects you wouldn't think (worst of which is voltage spikes, but that is another story).... car will crank over yes, but is the starter pulling all available current and the electrics aren't getting any, or enough?? who knows.... still worth checking I'd say

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Before my younger brother wrote off my Mi16, It suffered similar problems when hot. The last straw was when it stalled in a Maccas drive-through.
    An auto electrician diagnosed it as a faulty ignition module. Problem solved. It worked perfectly after that.
    Hope this helps,
    Chris.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    I'll have a sticky beak at the above mentioned areas.

    In a search on this topic, I found that most people metioned that in a car like this, the idle motor is the culprit. But I've already cleaned out the one on there.

    When I get around to changing the plugs, I am going to fit new leads, replace fuel filter as well as remove the throttle body (whatever you call it), MAP sensor area. And give it a good clean.

    Any recommendations for that. I was thinking of spraying carbi clean down it (once it is removed) and then blowing it out.

    pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    An auto electrician diagnosed it as a faulty ignition module. Problem solved. It worked perfectly after that.
    Hope this helps,
    Chris.
    More than likely dried up heat transfer compound under the module. If it doesn't heatsink properly onto the aluminium plate it will have all the symptons mentioned.


    And as Alan said, find the power distribution block behind the LH headlight. Pull all the plugs out, clean up and refit.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Member senthil16V's Avatar
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    could be also improper groundind after years of oxidation and corrosion on earth cables...try this...connect a single 300 amp cable to the -ve side of the batt and bolt on to any metal part of chassis...the problem should be cleared as what you describe sound like poor electrical earth contacts...

    With Rgds,

    Senthil16V

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    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Hey guys.
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

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    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Hey guys. Sorry for not having responded in a while.

    I've checked the voltage at the battery and at the coil when the poor idle and eventual stalling occours.

    The voltage was sitting on 13.6VDC when I checked it. I thougth this was alittle low, as most Jap bikes I have ever worked on sit around 14VDC.

    I looked in my workshop manual and surely enough, it says that it should stay between 12-13 VDC, but never go over 14VDC.

    Anyway. I talked to a few other people that gave me another suggestion. Which was to remove the petrol filler cap while the car is running and does its thing. If the idle goes back to normal or changes, then maybe the fuel tank breather hose it stuffed. I tried this. Nothing changed at all.

    I'll keep you posted and see how I go.

    Thanks for the suggestions thus far.

    pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Ren25's Avatar
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    Hi all
    I'd be having a really good look for vacuum leaks, ie. perished hoses etc as efi cars are really sensitive to this problem, will make them run so badly you think the car is past it's use by date. I've had the 25 blowing clouds of smoke and unable to run under 2 grand, just a 50c hose.
    Because there are so many sensors and they only come into action at certain times or conditions, the car may run OK except when this conditon happens. eg high ambient, MAP etc. Good luck with it. It definitly sounds efi related rather than charging system/voltage
    Cheers
    Mike
    Armageddon was yesterday
    Today we have a problem


    2000 406 Hdi X 3
    2003 307 Hdi

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    I will be checking vacuum hoses this week.

    I just replaced my Brake master cylinder that decided to let go.

    Fortunately <bragging> I have semi decent driving skills and cat like reflexes </bragging> and I was able to quickly pull up with gearing down, hand brake, etc.

    I fixed up the master cylinder, so I have pedal pressure again.

    I've gone an bought a lemon, now I'm trying to decide if its worth keeping, or flogging off at someone that car afford to repair all the things that went wrong with it between when I got it (when it ran like a German rail system) to the opposite end of its swing... like a dog with one leg.

    I am truly contemplating getting rid of it and getting a Golf GTI or something.

    I shall let you know what happens, and take it from there.
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Ren25's Avatar
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    Pips
    It *will* be something simple, trust me, I'm a rat
    Cheers
    Mike
    Armageddon was yesterday
    Today we have a problem


    2000 406 Hdi X 3
    2003 307 Hdi

  21. #21
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    Howdy Pips,

    You might remember a while back I said:

    With your brakes, I'd suggest that the seals are worn in the master cylinder. These rely on the sharp lip to expand under pressure and press onto the side of the bore. When the lip wears a bit flat, you start getting occasional bypass of the fluid past the seals. Usually if this is the case, a sharp application is ok, but a slow, gradual application is when the trouble happens. Just make sure the calipers at the wheels aren't streaming fluid, but it sounds more like the master. Note that if the master cylinder seals are going, the master doesn't necessarily leak, as the outermost seal might still be ok (there are a few in there).

    Look, I'd persevere with the car. As you've observed, they are so good to drive, they're worth it. You'll have very little chance of buying the model of Golf GTi you'd get for the same money (ie. a poor example of a GTi Mk I or II) which are almost non-existent in Australia anyway.

    The current problem shouldn't be a tank breather, as it's a sealed tank with the fuel cycling through the injection and back to the tank continuously via the pressure regulator.

    Please take Peter T's suggestions on board - have you compared the difference between the battery voltage and the coil voltage when the problem occurs? Note that the heat transfer compound Peter refers to, and that you may need to apply to the back of the ignition module, is available at Dick Smith's, in small tubes, 'Unick' brand.

    Stick in there.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    I have checked the voltage at the battery and the coil. same.

    as far as the heatsink compound goes. I have not checked that yet. I have lots of that Unick stuff, as I work with computers all day, I have tubes of it in my toolkit.

    I just wanted to make sure we're both talking about the same part. (When looking at the engine from the front of the car) This is the black box to the left and on top of the air filter box?

    Sorry, just that I've found a few black boxes around the car... and I am a retired mechanic by trade, but I've grown up with the ol' skool stuff... carbi's and all that. Never played with EFI... its daunting. But aye, that's progress.

    pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

  23. #23
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Seems as thou everybody's gone the deep and meaningful route but have you checked the basics?
    Plugs (refer Dave's posting on his 16V) injectors, plug leads etc?

    WTF how did these still work??

    Just a thought, but I recently saw a case where a guy overseas had his car off the road for I think it was 5 weeks, went into "suicide mode" (ie) "If somebody don't tellme howta fixit soon I'll go buy a Hyundies - so there!!" and then discovered the car was parked on an angle and needed petrol in it.
    This was inbetween dignosing it as major electricals, ECU and everything else that cost an arm and a leg whilst ignoring the bleedin' obvious. Might be a case of starting at the basics ad working up from there or you're just pot shotting in the dark.



    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    The reminds me of when I was an apprentice, there was a new guy, trying to make an impression... we had a bike with an issue of not starting.

    Most bikes don't have fuel gauges, and modern bikes petrol tanks are designed in such a way that you can't see the bottom.

    Anyway. As previously mentioned. I've come from a background where we learnt to fix things before replacing them, also to check fuses instead of replacing a headlight, then wondering why it still doesn't work.

    This guy stripped the bike to bits, when all he had to do was pull the fuel hose off and see if petrol came out.

    I've also seen "mechanics" spend hours looking for the oil filter on some bikes, while others have siphoned out the oil from the sump via the filler because they thought the big bolt in the middle of the sump was holding the entire engine together.

    While I'm replacing the spark plugs, leads etc... hopefully this weekend, I am also going to replace the fuel filter. But while I am around there, will check the flow of fuel coming out the pump.

    Something odd though. Today the car was running perfectly.... which pisses me off more, because now, I can't find the problem. And I am not satisfied that its "fixed" itself.

    I'm not going to replace the car... that was me talking while I was just alittle peeved... and the wife's words were not helping the matter.

    Thanks for the helpful hints and key areas to look at this far into it.

    I'm still not sure which module you guys want me to look at in regards to the heatsink compound. BTW, how much of the goop will I need? I checked my tool kit and there is alittle left... possibly enough for a few transistors, mosfet's and maybe a CPU or two. Somehow I doubt that this is enough.

    I am also thinking of changing the entire fuel line, all of them.

    What I did notice when starting it today though, was that alittle bit of smoke came out the bonnet. When I looked, it appeared to be coming from the back of the head... my instant thought was.... rocker cover gasket. It's very hard to look back there. So next time its light and I have time, I shall use my dentists mirror to have a squiz. I've heard these are a fortune to buy. Assuming this is the problem.

    I am kinda pot shooting in the dark, because looking at all the stuff with EFI has left me there.

    I've been checking all the basics, but am coming up even more stumped.... hence why I've come here.

    Thanks
    pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

  25. #25
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    The smoke from the back of the head is fairly common. If you take the rocker cover off, you'll see there's an inch or more of oil sitting at the back like a tide so that gasket is constantly on the receiving end of a lot of oil sitting against it and it doesn't take much for one drip to just piddle out and drop on the exhaust which turns it into instant smoke.
    My 16V smokes like a steam engine if left sitting for a few days, so I just drive it reasonably sanely for the first few klms to dry it out and not risk setting the lot alight. I have the cover off an Mi16 at present and the previous owner had rebuilt the engine and must have used a tube of the blue silicone around the new gasket when he refitted, but at least it didn't leak, but it obviously must have at some stage.
    What kind of petrol have you been using? You wouldn't be the first to have a car that suddenly took a dislike to a certain fuel or qctane rating; might be worthy of thought and may explain the sudden "miracle healing" that's gone on if you've filled up in the past day or so.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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