More HP with magnet direct drive wheels
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    17

    Default More HP with magnet direct drive wheels

    Hey guys, like most of us on here I am constiently looking for ways to increase HP for my Peugeot, more so the 206 GTI 180, and after all the painful disappointments with engine not being strong enough, or cost being a major factor, not to mention the added dream of an AWD version that we all so much wish we had...well that might be more possible than you thought.

    There has been this concept called "Magnetic Direct Drive", it is not new, they wanted to use it in F1 but after realising the potential, banned it before it even started. The idea is you place electric motors in the wheels to add to the increase of HP without the added weight or other necessary modifications needed to make it stable. I am not sure if anyone has actually done it, there is a Finish guy that is designing a concept motorcycle that uses the concept http://www.gizmag.com.au/go/3629/

    There is a company in Tokyo that is already building them for cars, the good thing is it increases HP and increases the L/Km, because it uses the electric to add to the power increase rather than the engine. http://www.toyodenki.co.jp/en/html/inwheel.html

    Let me know what you guys think, I will find more and post it when I find it.

    Advertisement

  2. #2
    rek
    rek is offline
    1000+ Posts rek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, Vic
    Posts
    1,388

    Default

    Sounds interesting (especially in terms of increased torque at standstill and low rpm), but not sure how useful it'll be from a pure performance standpoint... it sounds more like technology that would make for better inner-city hybrid type car. Two things come to mind:

    1/ the direct drive motor at each wheel hub increase the unsprung weight of the car, affecting the handling..

    2/ where does the power to drive the electric motors come from, if from the engine, I would think that it'd be more efficient to go engine --> wheels, than engine --> alternator --> electric motor --> wheels. Regnerative braking would help make this more efficient, though. But then you need batteries, which is more weight..
    Peter
    2008 Saab 9-3 1.9 TiD Sportcombi
    2011 Volvo C30 DRIVe 1.6D

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spaceghost
    Hey guys, like most of us on here I am constiently looking for ways to increase HP for my Peugeot, more so the 206 GTI 180, and after all the painful disappointments with engine not being strong enough, or cost being a major factor, not to mention the added dream of an AWD version that we all so much wish we had...well that might be more possible than you thought.

    There has been this concept called "Magnetic Direct Drive", it is not new, they wanted to use it in F1 but after realising the potential, banned it before it even started. The idea is you place electric motors in the wheels to add to the increase of HP without the added weight or other necessary modifications needed to make it stable. I am not sure if anyone has actually done it, there is a Finish guy that is designing a concept motorcycle that uses the concept http://www.gizmag.com.au/go/3629/

    There is a company in Tokyo that is already building them for cars, the good thing is it increases HP and increases the L/Km, because it uses the electric to add to the power increase rather than the engine. http://www.toyodenki.co.jp/en/html/inwheel.html

    Let me know what you guys think, I will find more and post it when I find it.
    I saw "magnet" and "increased horsepower" and thought you were going to buy the "magnets" you put around your fuel line to "align the atoms" or whatever [email protected] they came up with that time.

    I think Citroen had a very reliable hydraulic motor they ran at each wheel that they apparantly ran for over 1million km's to prove it's reliability (where do I read this [email protected] ... I've forgotten). It was going to be hugely expensive to put into production so they never used it. I wonder what it was The engine probably drove a massive hydraulic pump (and nothing else) which in turn supplied pressure to the hydraulic motors in each wheel.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    nth balwyn, victoria
    Posts
    1,428

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    I saw "magnet" and "increased horsepower" and thought you were going to buy the "magnets" you put around your fuel line to "align the atoms" or whatever [email protected] they came up with that time.



    I think Citroen had a very reliable hydraulic motor they ran at each wheel that they apparantly ran for over 1million km's to prove it's reliability (where do I read this [email protected] ... I've forgotten). It was going to be hugely expensive to put into production so they never used it. I wonder what it was The engine probably drove a massive hydraulic pump (and nothing else) which in turn supplied pressure to the hydraulic motors in each wheel.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    hey,dont pooh,pooh the atom alignment polarity theory.it won LOTS of races for peter brock back in the day.
    he was using crystals to acheive basically the same theory..
    it was taken out of his unbeaten holden torana by the motor racing board governing at the time because the theory could not be explained in laymens terms.
    it works by alignment of the polarity in the atoms of the fuel lines and air intake.[very simple explanation]
    they took it off because it couldnt be tested and was of the opinion that it was an unfair advantage.
    i think it was bob dylan who said -dont critisize what you dont understand. - the officials of the day could really have headed the advice.
    anyways magnet or crystalize and big up yourself-MASSIVE-bazz

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Ipswich, Queensland.
    Posts
    1,888

    Default

    Yamaha has made a two wheel drive enduro style motorcycle using a hydraulic motor on the front wheel.

    Queensland's diesel tilt train uses hydraulic drive with a couple of thousand Hp, to power it along the track.

    Might be hard to get the electric motors to spin hard enough at each wheel, or a complex variable drive would be necessary in a performance situation to see high speeds.

    And I have found that the magnets around the fuel line have improved my fuel economy. On the run up to Melany from Windsor, over Mt Glorious, and then many other narrow, steep, mountain roads, using a fair amount of throttle on the Renault Sport and Alpine Expo run, I got 33MPG, or 8.6L/100Klm out of my Alpine. It is not all done with magnets, but I am a believer that they make a difference.
    Last edited by alan moore; 15th July 2005 at 06:39 PM.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '08 Renault Megane sedan

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,248

    Default

    From memory Dr Porsche's first car was one which had 4 electric motors in the hubs of the car. I remember it being called the Lohner-Porsche (or Hohner?).

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  7. #7
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    8,923

    Default

    Ever seen "Sbarro's wheel"? Google around and you might get a surprise.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,248

    Default

    Yep, I've seen that Alan.

    Haven't some of the hybrids got this technology too, but go one step further as the engine also regenerates the battery when it's being driven by the wheel. I think at least one has the motors in the hubs.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  9. #9
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Well as I was researching on this I came across this interesting article regarding some of the issues you guys put up, and it seems that Mitsubishi is going to test the concept...here is what they say...http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...13/076652.html

  10. #10
    mlb
    mlb is offline
    Voted Most Popular mlb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Devonport, Tasmania
    Posts
    1,102

    Default

    Instead of using electromagnetic force at the wheels in an attempt to increase HP, why not put it to a tried and tested and more sigificant use and put magnets in the fuel system. You willl notice a much greater in improvment in power through all those molecule things being aligned.

    Sorry, not really helping, am I.

    Matt
    Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth.

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    75

    Default

    Baz,the brock "polarizer" you mention is the sole reason HDT ceased to exist,holden refused to use it or have it used on their vehicles because it was a crock.

    The magnets talked about mounted in hubs is about avoiding drive train power loses.Using electric power (batteries) it makes more sense to have 4 small electric motors mounted in the hubs rather than 1 big engine running thru a tradition transaxle setup.

    The yamaha 2 wheel runs of the engine power,and is extremely inefficient compared to the chain drive feed to the rear wheel.
    Last edited by Mandible; 16th July 2005 at 08:11 PM.

  12. #12
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    hey,dont pooh,pooh the atom alignment polarity theory.it won LOTS of races for peter brock back in the day.
    he was using crystals to acheive basically the same theory..
    it was taken out of his unbeaten holden torana by the motor racing board governing at the time because the theory could not be explained in laymens terms.
    it works by alignment of the polarity in the atoms of the fuel lines and air intake.[very simple explanation]
    they took it off because it couldnt be tested and was of the opinion that it was an unfair advantage.
    i think it was bob dylan who said -dont critisize what you dont understand. - the officials of the day could really have headed the advice.
    anyways magnet or crystalize and big up yourself-MASSIVE-bazz
    It was a Commodore and CAMS didn't care about it, it was Holden that were getting embarrassed by it.
    As I recall it made the car ride better but you also had to drop the tyre pressures to 22 PSI!!!!
    Graham

  13. #13
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandible
    Baz,the brock "polarizer" you mention is the sole reason HDT ceased to exist,holden refused to use it or have it used on their vehicles because it was a crock.

    The magnets talked about mounted in hubs is about avoiding drive train power loses.Using electric power (batteries) it makes more sense to have 4 small electric motors mounted in the hubs rather than 1 big engine running thru a tradition transaxle setup.

    The yamaha 2 wheel runs of the engine power,and is extremely inefficient compared to the chain drive feed to the rear wheel.
    Holden DID get GM to test it at their Milford test facility in the states with no benefit found.
    These sort of things make it hard for people with workable inventions, technology ignorant politicians once bitten will then not support worthwhile ideas.
    Graham

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! biologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    867

    Default

    I'm pretty sure a lot of the bigger mining trucks use this principle.
    They run a massive diesel generator that then powers the electric
    hub motors. Huge torque and pulling power from zero rpm
    and no clutch to burn out, its all been done before

    cheers,
    Biologist
    ----------------
    A
    one Megane Family

  15. #15
    mlb
    mlb is offline
    Voted Most Popular mlb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Devonport, Tasmania
    Posts
    1,102

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by biologist
    I'm pretty sure a lot of the bigger mining trucks use this principle.
    They run a massive diesel generator that then powers the electric
    hub motors. Huge torque and pulling power from zero rpm
    and no clutch to burn out, its all been done before

    cheers,
    Common form of propulsion on some ships too. Especially those requiring a high degree of maneouvrability or with high electrical demands. Passenger ships are a prime example. Often they have a series of kick arse generators feeding at least four electric motors fitted to propellors, thrusters, etc.
    Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,160

    Default

    barely any moving parts, easy to service, easier to over-engineer perhaps?
    Electrics seem to be a good option, thou nothing beats the power to weight of a petrol engine! (in general practical affordable consumer type ways!)

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Far North Queensland
    Posts
    1,494

    Default Way out department.

    Sure enough the power has to come from somewhere and thats the existing petrol engine. But the plus is with a front wheel drive vehicle with petrol powering the front wheels and battery/electric motor powering the rears there is the potential for a performance increase.
    Replace the rear beam axle with a diff-type rear axle and hook the electric motor onto it via an electric clutch.
    Keep the size/weight of the batteries down and just use the electric drive for sprints. Set it up for regen under brakes (would probably act as a reasonable brake or at least give drag when required).
    Supercapacitors have been used in place of batteries and they are much lighter than batteries.
    Bit of extra weight to lug around but could be interesting.

    Anyone want to chuck a Datsun 120Y rear axle under a 205. LOL.

    504-504-504

    just bought another 505 wagon, now to get it from Melbourne up to Cairns.
    Last edited by 504-504-504; 15th August 2005 at 08:33 AM. Reason: wrong terminology

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •