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  1. #1
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Default LRP - Questions?

    Hey,

    My Dad has an "older" car which requires the use of LRP (Lead Replacement Petrol) The other day, he goes to the petrol station with me and shock horror - there is no LRP anymore

    Anyways, getting to the point, Dad wants to know what is the best and cheapest way to run his car using some form of unleaded with the additive?

    What is the best lead substitute to buy?

    What petrol should he mix it with for the best economy/performance?

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    The Car in question is a Holden Sunbird with the Starfire 4cyl motor

    I know it isnt a french car but could someone give us some advice?

    Thanks heaps!

    CYas Stalled
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  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    normal unleaded with flash lube should be ok

    premium unleaded if he wants it to perform (can you have the word perform and sunbird in the same sentence )

    the starfire is the 186 missing 2 pots so it runs soft seats from memory
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  3. #3
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Hey,

    Whats the cheapest way to buy the "Flash Lube"?

    Is there certain shops which seel it for cheaper or can it be bought in bulk for a discount price?

    Thanks heaps again!

    Cyas Stalled
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Shell Australia was the last company to supply LRP, with NSW sites (T/A Coles Express) ceasing receipt of deliveries as of June 6th. Be aware that, as per PugRambo's post it will suffer slightly as a result of switching to ULP because you're dropping from 95RON to 91RON.
    Like PugRambo said, buy Flashlube. I think it goes for about $10/500ml and probably cheaper if you can get it in larger quantities. It's used at a ratio of 1ml per litre. I'd use a higher octane fuel than ULP just to be safe too. You can get Flashlube, Valvemaster etc from any reputable parts supplier.
    Chris

    www.flashlube.com.au/

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    approx $65 per litre from motoring stores

    onya stalled, D/L yet?

    ed ge

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    approx $65 per litre from motoring stores
    .....

    ED GE....u mean $65 for 4 litres....right?


    I "try" and use flashlube (I m lazy at times) with BP ultimate.....seems to be the best solution but definitely not the most economical...... I d say...just experiment a bit....I ve tryed many different types of fuels and the 98 BP seems to be the best.....but one will always see diffences of opinion...ie. I recently read here somewhere where a user GOT worse economy on BP in his s16....yet I find a completely different conclusion re: both performance and economy...


    cheers


    dino

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Still say that Ultimate is the best. I tried again last week with Optimax as its was sellings cheaper this way.

    Damn car doesn't idle right and likes to pink more??? If i play with the timing i can fix some of this but Ultimate just seems to like my car more.

    shobbz
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    Still say that Ultimate is the best. I tried again last week with Optimax as its was sellings cheaper this way.

    Damn car doesn't idle right and likes to pink more??? If i play with the timing i can fix some of this but Ultimate just seems to like my car more.

    shobbz
    It should not "PING" at all.
    You may be running a little too much advance.
    Is the pre-detonation sound when running along the flat or under considerable load, (uphill full throttle).
    There is not that much difference in the RON between Ultimate and Optimax to be picked up in a low compression 504 motor, (BTW what is the compression ratio of your motor).

    You may find that by dropping back 1 Deg or so on the timing, the fuel economy will not suffer, (it may well improve) and "power" delivery will be over a broarder rev range, (you may have to take it out a few hundered rpm more before changing gears).
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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    thanx dino

    ed ge

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma
    It should not "PING" at all.
    You may be running a little too much advance.
    Is the pre-detonation sound when running along the flat or under considerable load, (uphill full throttle).
    There is not that much difference in the RON between Ultimate and Optimax to be picked up in a low compression 504 motor, (BTW what is the compression ratio of your motor).

    You may find that by dropping back 1 Deg or so on the timing, the fuel economy will not suffer, (it may well improve) and "power" delivery will be over a broarder rev range, (you may have to take it out a few hundered rpm more before changing gears).
    I don't know the exact ratio i must admit. The engine was reconditioned about 5 years ago so I have to assume that it was shaved somewhat.

    I have backed the timing back a few degrees (I have a massive thread on this subject) and all that happened was that economy goes down and you really have to push the car to make it move.

    pinking is under load going uphill or with passengers under lane changing acceleration.

    All this talk of a car that has little paint and no front windscreen, all fixed by the weekend hopefully.

    shobbz
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I bought Flashlube in a 2.5 L container for $22 from Automart. The instructions say 1ml to the L, so would be good for 2500L. So far no recession on my old BMW bike, or my 4CV, but they do have alloy heads with reasonable seats to begin with. I use Caltex Vortex in the BMW and BP Ultimate in the 750.(11.3 to 1) BP, I have found is best in very high compression engines
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  12. #12
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Hey,

    Thanks everyone for your replies and information

    Cyas Stalled
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  13. #13
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma
    It should not "PING" at all.
    Sorry, but Shobbz was right. Pinking is actually the correct term. It's just that with the passing of time (several decades), the mistake has surplanted the original.
    Last edited by WLB; 12th July 2005 at 02:17 PM.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    I use Caltex Vortex in the BMW and BP Ultimate in the 750.(11.3 to 1) BP, I have found is best in very high compression engines
    This is consistant with my Bx GT with ~11:1 compression, in current tune it will ping on optimax but is ok on Ultimate.

    Dave


  15. #15
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    the starfire is the 186 missing 2 pots so it runs soft seats from memory
    I've never been able to find out which two cylinders were removed.

    Like that other great mystery. Never having seen one with the head off, I don't know the answer to this one either. When Mitsubishi Aust. developed the first Magna by stretching the width of the Sigma, did they make the cylinders oval or just move them further apart?

  16. #16
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Shobbz : As to your pinging - does the car have a Bosch dizzy? The advance mechanism tends to get worn and a little erratic with age.

    Cheers, Adam.

  17. #17
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Hey,

    I dont think ive ever heard a car "ping"

    What exactly happens when this occurs and what causes it?

    Thanks again!

    Cyas Stalled
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Stalled, didn't mean to lead your thread off track.

    sorry.

    New dizzy deucellieur less than a year old.

    shobbz
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  19. #19
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    Stalled, didn't mean to lead your thread off track.

    sorry.

    New dizzy deucellieur less than a year old.

    shobbz
    Don't worry, reading it all has been pretty informative and interesting!

    Cheers!

    Stalled
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  20. #20
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Stalled, pinging is when the fuel ignites frome residual heat and engine compression, before the spark fires. It goes off too soon, and in fact tries to force the piston down while it's still coming up to the cylinder top.

    The force of its explosion generates a sound like flicking your finger on the bottom of a Milo tin. A sort of "puck" with metallic tone. Depending on the motor and severity of the pinging, the noise can be louder or quieter.

    Generally with an old car, you set the advance so that it's just beginning to ping when you thrash it up a hill. Then back it off two degrees, and try again. If you can still hear pinging, lose another 2 and so on. The two degress is your margin of safety so cruddy fuel on a hot day means less chance of the pinging coming back.

    The lower your fuel quality, the more likely pinging on a motor as you describe. Avgas is nice but costly.

    Regards, Adam.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STALLED
    Hey,

    I dont think ive ever heard a car "ping"

    What exactly happens when this occurs and what causes it?

    Thanks again!

    Cyas Stalled
    I once heard of pinging best described as a sound virtually identical to a plastic drinking straw being lightly pressed against a domestic fan blade on a slow speed. I laughed at the time, however the bloke who told me has about
    as many years experience working on cars as I have had on earth, and I've since learn to appreciate this description.
    If you think you hear a sound like this, take note and replicate the conditions under which it occured in the company of someone (more)mechanically minded and get them to investigate.
    Pinging is caused by the fuel/air exploding rather than burning. People often describe internal combustion engines as a controlled explosion, however if you ever get the chance to see an old video showing a single cylinder engine filmed on a high speed camera you'll see that it burns at a very fast rate; it does not just explode.
    The sound you hear if and when an engine pings is that fuel/air mix exploding. This creates much higher cylinder pressures and the burnt fuel/air mixture has no way of escaping so the forces created act on the piston and/or combustion chamber. They're considered detrimental to an engine because those forces can damage engine internals, most notably the pistons.
    Possible causes are: too much ignition advance, lean mixture, too low octane fuel, and intake temps too high (more common with forced induction). Could be more which I've forgotton to mention, but these the main reasons from what I've learnt so far.
    Hope this helps.
    Chris.

  22. #22
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STALLED
    Hey,

    I dont think ive ever heard a car "ping"

    What exactly happens when this occurs and what causes it?

    Thanks again!

    Cyas Stalled

    i'll get the 604 nice and hot and turn the water injection off and take you for a run in it

    you will soon hear what pinging sounds like

    much akin to a couple of buttons in a glass jar bieng shaken around
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  23. #23
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Hey,



    I think i get the idea of what it sounds like now

    Ill have to pass this info on to my dad and we will try the different petrols in the car and see how each one affects the car!

    Thanks heaps again!

    Cyas Stalled
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    You can avoid using the Flashlube by fitting a tin canister... as I've proved conclusively.

    But there is another saving grace for cars that require lead... it seems that there is a coating on the valve seats from running on leaded fuel that lasts extremely well. Just how well is shown by the fact that the car hasn't had VSR despite running for a couple of years on LRP.

    That's right... LRP was pretty useless when it came to saving valve seats. It was LRP that gave me my biggest headaches after a head change and led to me getting a tin canister.

    So tell him to run straight premium unless he finds the valve seats are receding. Then just fit a tin canister. With a tin canister it's also possible he'll be able to run leaded instead of premium.

    The economy comes when the Sunbird goes... you can transfer the canister to another car. They're good for millions of kms.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    he's back

    Dave


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