Cryogenic treatments
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default Cryogenic treatments

    Has anyone on FF had any experience with cryogenically treated engine parts? I remember reading in Zoom that it has various advantages when used on pistons, rods etc, most notably an increase of strength and durability. I'm investigating this with a view to getting pistons for the 505 treated if I can't source any aftermarket items.
    Any feedback would be appreciated.
    Chris

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default freeze treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Has anyone on FF had any experience with cryogenically treated engine parts? I remember reading in Zoom that it has various advantages when used on pistons, rods etc, most notably an increase of strength and durability. I'm investigating this with a view to getting pistons for the 505 treated if I can't source any aftermarket items.
    Any feedback would be appreciated.
    Chris
    Don't know anything about about freeze treatment of steel items.

    But a blast of R22 refrigerant on chewing gum stuck to the front cloth seat worked wonders with it's removal !

    (with respects to Cris' more serious post)

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default Chewy

    Cheers mate, I'll keep a supply of R22 under the seat in case I have a snack related mishap at the wheel...

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    twm
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Cheers mate, I'll keep a supply of R22 under the seat in case I have a snack related mishap at the wheel...
    Careful having it under the seat if it leaks you might chnage the tone of your voice

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Icon1

    This was a site that I got from somewhere??

    I think it was for the possible use of standard pistons in the turbo applications for the Swift. Might have some useful info.

    Heat Treatment Australia

    Don't know if this is of any use?

    Jono

    EDIT ok I got it wrong it was for the treatment of gearbox's to take more power (ie treat the components)..... still might help??
    Last edited by crosspug; 3rd July 2005 at 11:16 PM.
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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twm
    Careful having it under the seat if it leaks you might chnage the tone of your voice
    Correction: I'll put it under the passenger seat. I'll be sure to keep it quiet unless it does rupture, in which case I'll point and laugh at the unlucky occupant...
    Or if it's cold enough I might take a page from Krusty's book and tap them with a ruler and shatter their frozen buttocks.

  7. #7
    WLB
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    Default CIG Cryotough

    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Has anyone on FF had any experience with cryogenically treated engine parts? I remember reading in Zoom that it has various advantages when used on pistons, rods etc, most notably an increase of strength and durability. I'm investigating this with a view to getting pistons for the 505 treated if I can't source any aftermarket items.
    Any feedback would be appreciated.
    Chris
    I worked with the original CIG Cryotough process back in the '80s. Their process dated back to the 70s and perhaps earlier. It probably came from BOC in the UK or Airco in the US, although we had some pretty cluey metallurgists in the company, so the hardware may have been locally designed. The units were built by the division that became Cigweld. (Got some tech literature somewhere). It's a surface hardening process used mainly for extending the life of wearing parts and cutting tools. We had installations all over the place. Most were an insulated dip tank in which a basket lowered the parts into the LN2 at a controlled rate. The rate of surface temp change is quite important so the controller had to take the parts down in steps through the stratified temperature layers in the vapour above the liquid surface. It was used with heat threatment usually (from memory). Most applications were for cutting tools like drill bits and lathe tools in manufacturing plants like GMH.

    Haven't seen one for quite awhile. We used to have lots of the units sitting in stores around the country. Cryogen Industries are the only people I've heard of doing it as a service, but I don't know how good they are. They weren't around when I was in the industry.

    http://www.cryogen.com.au/

    Hope this helps, but don't get conned as there are a lot of myths surrounding cryogenics.

    Warwick.

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    Fellow Frogger! ClioF1's Avatar
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    Wasn't there a metallurgist in the US that did this to his whole Honda Civic engine and got heaps more power and fuel economy? Apparently it lined up the mollecules in the metal so it heated evenly and was stronger so the frictional losses decreased.
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    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Try.
    http://www.hekimianracing.com/custpart.html
    http://www.praisedynobrake.com/cryogenic.htm

    This sounds like a good way to waste $$$$$.

    If a 505 needs wizz bang pistons to survive then me thinks you need to slow down or buy something that does the job better.

    The cryogenic process is generally for steel parts and not for Al Alloys.
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    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClioF1
    Wasn't there a metallurgist in the US that did this to his whole Honda Civic engine and got heaps more power and fuel economy? Apparently it lined up the mollecules in the metal so it heated evenly and was stronger so the frictional losses decreased.
    Like I said; there are a lot of myths surrounding cryogenics. Sounds a bit like the magnets used to align fuel molecules so they vaporize and burn better!!!???

    And yes, it's not for aluminium. Piston rings and cylinder liners could be effectively improved so that they last much longer, but not cost-effectively. However, drill bits and cutters in a production line is a different story.
    Last edited by WLB; 3rd October 2015 at 12:57 AM. Reason: typo

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    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClioF1
    Wasn't there a metallurgist in the US that did this to his whole Honda Civic engine and got heaps more power and fuel economy? Apparently it lined up the mollecules in the metal so it heated evenly and was stronger so the frictional losses decreased.

    you can change the structure of steel with heat treatments

    but as for more power and economy??? i recon they got you with that one, you've been had

  12. #12
    Member GunnaWanna's Avatar
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    I have heard of this process too, alot about it in car tuning mags,
    Apparently it is just as good as shot peening if not better.
    From memory it is actually quite cheap. I have a vague memory of it not being over $30 per kilo.

    Alot of people seem to be using it for strengthening turboed engine projects,
    you'd think if it didnt work it would also be in the car mags.
    para un auto de rapido fuego

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    I read with great interest an article in Zoom in which the 'Cryotuff' process was applied to the parts of a fairly muscular GTR (or possibly GTS25T, it was quite some time ago) Skyline which gained 30 something kw having received said treatment. I'm always sceptical of cheap power gains (pardon me whilst I adjust my energy polarisor!), and this seemed too good to be true for fairly miniscule spendings.
    The inherent strengthening achieved through heat treatment and cooling I can appreciate, but such substantial power gains seem too far fetched for a fairly simple process.
    Please keep the info coming.
    Chris

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    Member GunnaWanna's Avatar
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    Never heard getting any power gains out of it.
    As far as I was aware it was useful to run more power, ie wind up the boost.
    Hence the extra strengthening so the engine can handle it.
    para un auto de rapido fuego

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    I did a bit of research and found several companies in Oz offering this sort of service, a few were specifically advertising treatment of engine parts. Gains of 18 - 540% in strength were listed, depending on composition of the part.
    Prices were seldom listed. Some mentioned power gains however I am still not convinced.
    If I persue this as an option I'll make sure I post the results (if they are actually noticable that is).
    Chris.

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    Bakers in Box Hill, Melbourne do this process. Rob said much the same as Warwick. It's not expensive. If it wasn't cost effective Ford, Toyota etc would not waste their money on it.
    I think he said a drill for example lasts a whole shift. Whereas with an untreated drill they'd be using a few in one shift.

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    Default Tempering honed edges?

    Just as you heat metal and then temper it, cryogenic treatment MAY help a similar process of either crystaline or mollicular change in specially prepared steel compounds and this change MAY assist in the retention of a sharp edge, but IMHO generally to apply the process to assorted metal parts in the hope that ? might happen is a very unscientific approach to nirvana!

    Perhaps a crystal swung from the mirror mount may provide the same answer and cost a lot less money.

    Ken

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    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    I'm a little bit short on Crystalls at the moment. Would pink fluffy dice be sufficient?

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    Default Sokay maate

    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    I'm a little bit short on Crystalls at the moment. Would pink fluffy dice be sufficient?
    They will match the moccasins I'm sure

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    Just as you heat metal and then temper it, cryogenic treatment MAY help a similar process of either crystaline or mollicular change in specially prepared steel compounds and this change MAY assist in the retention of a sharp edge, but IMHO generally to apply the process to assorted metal parts in the hope that ? might happen is a very unscientific approach to nirvana!

    Perhaps a crystal swung from the mirror mount may provide the same answer and cost a lot less money.

    Ken
    Peter Brock believed in a similar idea. Don't forget to lower your tyre pressures to 22psi also.

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  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    My moccassins are brown with pink highlights, not pink! I have taste thankyou.
    Chris

  22. #22
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    Just as you heat metal and then temper it, cryogenic treatment MAY help a similar process of either crystaline or mollicular change in specially prepared steel compounds and this change MAY assist in the retention of a sharp edge.....Ken
    It DOES and has been used for some decades. But that's probably as far as it goes. It increases surface hardness of steel alloys significantly.

    It may have some effect on strength; I don't know. It was never used that way in my time in the cryogenic industry. Mild streel actually becomes brittle below minus 20 deg C and the brittleness remains if the steel is repeatedly subjected to cryo temperatures.

    I could be proven wrong as I've been away from the industry for 6 years, but I suspect that someone is just extrapolating. They know the treatment makes steel harder by rearranging the molecular structure, therefore, they extrapolate, it must be stronger too and if the engine is stronger it must be capable of more power. OR, it realigns the molecular structure, therefore if the molecules are aligned it must have less friction. None of which of course naturally follows.

    It's not unusual for wild extrapolation to be made from a factual starting point. One of my favourites was an enquiry I had about 20 years ago from someone building a drag car.
    Fact: Cooling the incoming air charge gets more air in the combustion chamber and more fuel can be added to get more power.
    Fact: Liquid nitrogen is very cold.
    Fact: Air is mostly (78%) nitrogen.
    Therefore, spraying LN2 into the air intake of the dragster engine would give massive power increase.

    It was very difficult to convince the guy on the phone, whose brilliant idea it was, that it wouldn't work without actually mentioning any words that may have conveyed the meaning "stupid".

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Just for the record Gamma, at no stage of Peugeot ownership have I considered slowing down an option. This would be far too sensible, practical, cost effective, the list goes on and on. But none of these (good!) points provide me with the whistle of a turbo and the rush of torque which comes with it, or blasting past the bogun brigade at a set of lights.
    Chris.

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Just for the record Gamma, at no stage of Peugeot ownership have I considered slowing down an option. This would be far too sensible, practical, cost effective, the list goes on and on. But none of these (good!) points provide me with the whistle of a turbo and the rush of torque which comes with it, or blasting past the bogun brigade at a set of lights.
    Chris.
    True!

    I prefer to use the pure handling prowess to overtake on the outside run of those "bogans" who lack the ---ow u say---KA-HOON-AS.....
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
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