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Thread: Pistons

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default Pistons

    Help needed: I'm having considerable difficulty finding aftermarket pistons for the 505GTi. Can't find any listings at all. Hypereutectics seem to be available for various Pugs, just not the 50' series or earlier.
    OEM units may be suitable, but this is a turbo application so I'm looking for additional strength. Any feedback on longevity of OEM units appreciated (mine has covered about 20000k's @ 8psi without any problems with OEM pistons; boost increase planned hence the request for piston info).
    Cheers,
    Chris

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  2. #2
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Help needed: I'm having considerable difficulty finding aftermarket pistons for the 505GTi. Can't find any listings at all. Hypereutectics seem to be available for various Pugs, just not the 50' series or earlier.
    OEM units may be suitable, but this is a turbo application so I'm looking for additional strength. Any feedback on longevity of OEM units appreciated (mine has covered about 20000k's @ 8psi without any problems with OEM pistons; boost increase planned hence the request for piston info).
    Cheers,
    Chris
    With some minor machining of the block, B28/B280 volvo pistons and liners fit into a Douvrin 4. 604/B27 ones go straight in.

    The B28 ones also increase displacement from 2165cc to 2262cc. If you can find a set of 605/XM pistons and liners, you can take it out to 2417cc.

    The standard B28 pistons give you a compression ratio of 8.6:1. I haven't done the maths on the others yet. The CR would be lower, but the 88mm diameter combustion chamber of the 505 engine boosts it a bit, and borders on creating a squish/quench area.

    The other advantage of the B280 pistons is that the rings are further down the piston and are more resistant to detonation, however compression is higher.
    Last edited by Demannu; 9th July 2005 at 03:07 PM. Reason: maths problems
    Scotty

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Help needed: I'm having considerable difficulty finding aftermarket pistons for the 505GTi. Can't find any listings at all. Hypereutectics seem to be available for various Pugs, just not the 50' series or earlier.
    OEM units may be suitable, but this is a turbo application so I'm looking for additional strength. Any feedback on longevity of OEM units appreciated (mine has covered about 20000k's @ 8psi without any problems with OEM pistons; boost increase planned hence the request for piston info).
    Cheers,
    Chris
    Try Australian Precision Engine Parts in Sherwood Ave Wantirna South Vic.
    Bill Freame is the guy to talk to.
    Graham

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Do you know anyone in the USA? If so, I can help you with some custom Wiseco pistons.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Thanks Peter. I found a post from quite some time ago advertising a very, very tough Douvrin engine built with no expense spared and it mentioned Arias pistons being custom manufactured, unfortunately at a cost of A$1200. A worthwhile investment yes, but I was hoping to get something slightly cheaper. Alas, I received no response from the member advertising the motor (being sold dirt cheap I might add!).
    I am quite happy to use oversized pistons (the extra capacity an added bonus) but even going OS seems to be uncharted territory with this motor.
    The PRV option mentioned above is a good one, but once again these would be cast pistons, and probably wont offer much more strength than the standard Douvrin items, correct me if I'm wrong.
    I posted the 'Cryogenic treatments' thread as I intend to investigate this further if I have to use (or re-use) the OEM units.
    Thanks to all for the advice.
    Chris

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I'm talking about forged at US$110/piston (inc. rings & pins). You only need them to be 10 or 20 thou bigger so you can clean the bore up.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    So I'm guessing that they'd end up being about A$200 per piston landed in Oz? Would I have to provide a sample unit for them to reference prior to manufacture? Credit card would be a sufficient means of payment for an overseas order wouldn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    So I'm guessing that they'd end up being about A$200 per piston landed in Oz? Would I have to provide a sample unit for them to reference prior to manufacture? Credit card would be a sufficient means of payment for an overseas order wouldn't it?
    Are you going to contact APEP?
    Graham

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default Apep

    I'll give them a call. Haven't yet due to getting your info on a weekend. Have you had much experience with them? I found a few sites mentioning them in relation to Fiats and Alphas, hopefully they'll point me in the right direction.
    Thanks Graham.
    Chris.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Help needed: I'm having considerable difficulty finding aftermarket pistons for the 505GTi. Can't find any listings at all. Hypereutectics seem to be available for various Pugs, just not the 50' series or earlier.
    OEM units may be suitable, but this is a turbo application so I'm looking for additional strength. Any feedback on longevity of OEM units appreciated (mine has covered about 20000k's @ 8psi without any problems with OEM pistons; boost increase planned hence the request for piston info).
    Cheers,
    Chris
    Chris, How much boost are you planning on using after the changes??

    In a previous thread which talked about the few Turbo PRV 505's that are around they mention that they are running about 12psi on stock internals. I know you've got the details of what and where etc from more knowledgable people above.

    If that was close to the number that you were hoping for then maybe it is a viable option?? if something like water injection was used to assist/control the process?

    Just a thought, if the process becomes too involved/expensive with aftermarket items.

    Jono
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Just out of interest Crosspug, what the hell were you doing on AF at 3 in the morning? I admire your dedication.
    I want to run enough boost to get a consistent 180kw @ the flywheel (currently approx. 140). I am investigating water injection to aid this figure and reduce the risk of pinging. My ECU can run a water injection pump, so I'm trying to get hold of a supplier of individual parts not complete kits because I don't need all items included, most notably the controller (processor).
    I am trying to find out about pistons because not one parts supplier can (understandably) give me any idea of a safe working limit for OEM pistons.
    The T25 is already flat out, so a GT25/30 is soon to be fitted. They're rated at 290hp so it should give me the top end I want, with excellent boost response due to a ball bearing core.
    Essentially, I don't want to be the unlucky one who finds out when the pistons give up.
    Chris.
    Apologies Crosspug, I think I missed the point of your queston. I think that to get the 180w I want, I will need to run about 14- 15 psi.
    Last edited by 505 to the max; 9th July 2005 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Amendment

  12. #12
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I bought a couple of 2.2 litre Renault engines running turbos (same engine as 505 GTi, except slightly different mounting point on the head for the intake manifold. Running a downdraft weber 40mm IDA in a suck through configuration with no intercooler, the guy was getting 210hp at the back wheels in a VW based buggy. 210hp = 158kw at the wheels, so probably about 170 - 175kw at the flywheel. So with a good fuel management system, and a good intercooler setup, you should be able to get your 180 fairly comfortably. And I'm guessing you won't be valve bouncing off 8000 RPM all day every day like these engines were! He apparently never destroyed a motor, but one of them is getting a bit smoky, but the turbo is shagged so I'm hoping that's it.

    I'm putting one of these motors in my 504, with a 505 GTi BA7/5 gearbox. I'm not worried about the motor surviving, but I've got my doubts about this gearbox!!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

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    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    G'day Scott. That's some handy info you've posted. I know that they're a fairly tough motor (maybe not quite Toyota tough!) and several people have told me not to worry about the pistons. From your post above I'm starting to really believe what I've been told. Maybe I could get away with just a reco so I know that I'm not missing out on any performance.
    Perhaps I should just wind up the boost to about 14psi and see what happens? Not sure what the turbo would think of it either...
    I must admit that I am a tad concerned about the gearbox's capacity to handle all that extra torque. Time will tell, although I've never had a problem with the BA7/5, no degradation of shift quality etc.
    Any idea of what sort of costs are involved with reconditioning the Douvrin including new OEM pistons and liners?
    Thanks to all for the advice.
    Chris

  14. #14
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Any idea of what sort of costs are involved with reconditioning the Douvrin including new OEM pistons and liners?
    Seriously, don't bother. These motors (and often a whole car) go for well under $500 these days. In a turbo application, you should be looking for STi blocks, as they run a lower compression ratio (and the camshaft has a little less overlap, but also slightly less lift).

    Pistons and liners can still be bought new, but you'd be looking at about $600 EACH, so think $2400 just for them. I guess 2700-2800 in parts alone for a complete rebuild. I wouldn't bother. Long blocks at U-Pull-It here in adelaide go for $195, and there were 6 STI's there last weekend. Plentiful and cheap.

    Wind up the boost, when she blows, just stick in another. You'll go through close to 15 motors before you pay for one rebuild, and I reckon that'll take a while!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu
    Seriously, don't bother. These motors (and often a whole car) go for well under $500 these days. In a turbo application, you should be looking for STi blocks, as they run a lower compression ratio (and the camshaft has a little less overlap, but also slightly less lift).

    Pistons and liners can still be bought new, but you'd be looking at about $600 EACH, so think $2400 just for them. I guess 2700-2800 in parts alone for a complete rebuild. I wouldn't bother. Long blocks at U-Pull-It here in adelaide go for $195, and there were 6 STI's there last weekend. Plentiful and cheap.

    Wind up the boost, when she blows, just stick in another. You'll go through close to 15 motors before you pay for one rebuild, and I reckon that'll take a while!
    On the other hand with high boost the pistons may last no time at all. The Turbo V6s running around have had a lot of piston problems.
    It would be a good idea to get a set of forged pistons made by APEP, much cheaper than $2400.
    Graham

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    The idea with my car is to make it quick, but also built to last so I tend to agree with Graham on this. I could think of nothing worse than worrying about my motor everytime I reach full boost. And changing motors everytime it breaks would be a real pain.
    I have just moved to QLD so I'll be pretty well organised this week and contacting APEP very soon. The way I see it, if I get a good quality motor built from the start, then it's done and I don't have think about it again and I'd be free to adjust the boost up to a reasonable level (hopefully it won't have to go much past 1 bar).Once that's sorted I can start experimenting with things like water and methanol injection.
    I am looking forward to using my ECU's anti-lag to kiss the T25 goodbye as well. I'm pretty sure that it will kill the turbo, but I can't wait to record the 'crackle and pop' on gearchanges and scare a few local pensioners.
    Graham, have you had any pistons etc made by APEP?
    Chris

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    What about R21 Turbo pistons? The R21T guys in the UK get silly amounts of power out of stock R21T motors. They are a slightly different design to NA PRV motors, with the gudgeon pin attachment different.

    www.renault21turbo.com They would be the people to ask re. the strength of the stock R21T pistons, and availability of aftermarket items.
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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    What about R21 Turbo pistons? The R21T guys in the UK get silly amounts of power out of stock R21T motors. They are a slightly different design to NA PRV motors, with the gudgeon pin attachment different.

    www.renault21turbo.com They would be the people to ask re. the strength of the stock R21T pistons, and availability of aftermarket items.
    I've spent the last two days searching for R21 Turbo parts on the web with little success. I looked at heaps of links including R21 Turbo owners club but am yet to find anything listing pistons for sale. I also looked through these links hoping to find aftermarket turbo manifolds, but again no luck.
    I think that custom is my only decent option unless you can steer me in a suitable direction.
    Chris.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I reckon Carrevelle Imports in Melbourne would be able to get you a set OE R21T pistons on order - will take a little while as its all shipped sea freight though.

    Did you post on the R21T forum looking for pistons? I would very surprised if no one in that club knew of sources for OE and/or aftermarket sets.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    I'm hesitant to buy pistons from overseas, especially when I can't even verify if they're going to fit and function correctly. I'll investigate the APEP option first.
    Chris.

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