Mi16x4 technical information
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Default Mi16x4 technical information

    Here are some details on how the self levelling rear end works. When I get more time I'll scan the entire manual as a PDF.

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    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  2. #2
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Here are some details on how the self levelling rear end works. When I get more time I'll scan the entire manual as a PDF.
    Thanks for that Peter, can you explain the set-up in laymans terms. Of course I have a good grasp of the Citroen set-up, so should understand, but the drawings don't tell me the full story.

    From what I can tell the main advantage to the 405 would be the ability to maintain ride height independant of load (I guess that includes the forces created when cornering hard?) Does the sphere have dampers as in the Cit set-up? If so that single sphere is doing the work of the two spheres on the Cit, yes? Or is there a damper/shock set-up in the struts?

    Does the rear of the car drop as the sphere depressurises? There is no reserve of pressure as in the Cit set-up why? A question raised in another thread, does the handbrake operate on the front or rear wheels?

    Do you think the hydraulic rear adds to the handling charateristics? Seems odd for Peugeot to have been experimenting, did they view this as a failed trial for Peugeot? It wasn't used on any other Pug models that I am aware.
    Does it have any obvious differences to a standard Mi16 - other than badge work, that is when parked next to a standard car does it sit higher/lower?

    Still love to see some pics of the car and that rear end set-up, pretty intriguing... sorry for the mass of questions.

    To me this seems to have been a very important step by Peugeot at a time when they would have been taking a serious glimpse into Citroens future. The fact we now have only one hydraulic Cit in the current line-up (yes, soon to be two with the C6 - which shares suspension geometry with the 407) with electric pump, three different systems for brake/ steering/ and suspension. Could some or all of this be atributed to their dalliance with the Mi16x4 or am I drawing a long bow...

    Look forward to any knowledge you care to impart

    Cheers
    Chris
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  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Good grief,

    how on earth did they make simple hydraulics so complex

    All you need is a couple of trailing arms ..... simple and done

    You should have a look at what Rolls Royce did to the infinatly simple hydraulic system (really screwed it up big time & made it horendously complex).

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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood
    Thanks for that Peter, can you explain the set-up in laymans terms. Of course I have a good grasp of the Citroen set-up, so should understand, but the drawings don't tell me the full story.

    From what I can tell the main advantage to the 405 would be the ability to maintain ride height independant of load (I guess that includes the forces created when cornering hard?) Does the sphere have dampers as in the Cit set-up? If so that single sphere is doing the work of the two spheres on the Cit, yes? Or is there a damper/shock set-up in the struts?

    Does the rear of the car drop as the sphere depressurises? There is no reserve of pressure as in the Cit set-up why? A question raised in another thread, does the handbrake operate on the front or rear wheels?

    Do you think the hydraulic rear adds to the handling charateristics? Seems odd for Peugeot to have been experimenting, did they view this as a failed trial for Peugeot? It wasn't used on any other Pug models that I am aware.
    Does it have any obvious differences to a standard Mi16 - other than badge work, that is when parked next to a standard car does it sit higher/lower?

    Still love to see some pics of the car and that rear end set-up, pretty intriguing... sorry for the mass of questions.

    To me this seems to have been a very important step by Peugeot at a time when they would have been taking a serious glimpse into Citroens future. The fact we now have only one hydraulic Cit in the current line-up (yes, soon to be two with the C6 - which shares suspension geometry with the 407) with electric pump, three different systems for brake/ steering/ and suspension. Could some or all of this be atributed to their dalliance with the Mi16x4 or am I drawing a long bow...

    Look forward to any knowledge you care to impart

    Cheers
    Chris
    The one sphere does the job of two. The result is far superior to the Citroen as the cylinders are near horizontal, resulting in superior rear end geometry and damping.

    Yes, the rear will drop if the sphere depressurises. There is a 10 sec. delay on adjustments to make up for changes in road conditions. I'm not sure why they didn't use a cumulator. I guess the pump is fast enough to cope with changes in one sphere. The electrical circuit diagram is actually quite simple once you study it. Just a few lock out relays for hand brake etc. Hand brake operates the rear discs. Rear calipers are unique to the car.

    The road holding is absolutely mind blowing. Enough to out run a WRX STi on the "outside".

    There was a cheaper, 8V model, the GLx4. The only obvious external identifier, is the Mi16x4 badge on the boot lid. Ride height is the same as the FWD model. Front end damping/springing is a lot stiffer than the FWD.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Poo-Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    The result is far superior to the Citroen
    Shane?
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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    From what I can see of it, it would appear to be almost a primitive version of the hydractive/activa system.
    In their cases though, correction happens in about 2/3rds of a second.

    I'd be interested to know how they compare (same driver over the same course) between the later active systems and these, as the hydractive system is unbelieveable in performance and handling and those who have Activas reckon they are indescribable they handle so well.


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  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Whys everyone pick on me

    I've never driven an Mi16 4x4 so how can I possibly comment.

    Does it have a lightweight spring/shocker unit for each wheel You see if it's sharing a sphere the suspension is sharing the sphere's capacity between two wheels .... ie: it's have half the effectiveness.

    This means it will be twice as firm as there is half the dampening available, and twice as much fluid trying to move through the sphere valve as the equivelant Citroen.

    This may be exactly what they are after for what is basically a sports car though. The difficult part will be trying to match the ride comfort of the Citroen, you won't be able to most likely (but why would you want to, do you want a performance car to be soft as a marshmello in the bum That would put off a poogoe driver for sure).

    Example: My CX GTi turbo has considerable ponies under foot, if I accellerate harshly the tail will drop considerably ... infact almost to it's bumpstops. Now to a long time citroen driver I quite like this and it doesn't put me off at all.

    Now try putting that sort of suspension behaviour under the back of the Mi16 4x4 that has very well tied down front suspension and you'll have a car that non Citroen drivers will find very disconcerting (to say the least).

    From memory the trailing arm layout isn't ideal in a performance car either (it will certainly be interesting to see how a C6 with zero bodyroll suspension and poogeo suspension layout under the bum handles). It appear they have just used the standard poogoe suspension but simply removed the spring/shocker unit and installed a suspension cylinder/sphere in it's place. The sheer simplicity of a trailing arm (as used since the 50's) is gone, but it's sure going to be interesting to see how it drives.

    Of course the best of the lot is the Activa suspension, where there is actually hydraulic rams acting against the anti-roll bar. This allows soft springing with effectively zero degrees bodyroll.

    Personally I'd love to see under the back of the Mi16 4x4 to have a look at the suspension geometry and see how it works. Not to mention a drive

    see here:

    http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/gen/C6_Suspension.html



    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 15th June 2005 at 11:20 AM.
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  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    BTW:

    Personally I'd like to get a BX 4wd to Peter. I value his opinions and it would be interesting to see what he thought of the BX with fully blown hydraulics under the back is like.

    The biggest problem being the 4wd unit used in them is so incredibly fragile that poeple in the UK basically consider any BX/405 4wd to be a parts car No doubt a couple of "drop the clutch at 5500rpm" type starts will spell history to the transfer box.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  9. #9
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Good grief, how on earth did they make simple hydraulics so complex
    Shane L.
    The actual hydraulic set-up appears to be quite simple, combining this with drive to the rear wheels would be where things maybe become more complicated?

    Now, this would be a great car to get along to one of the CCCNSW tech days, they have already had a look at the RR system, where are you Craig?

    I'd love to know more about it, why Peugeot went down this path as opposed to a more conventional set-up. Sounds like a very special beast Peter, you must get some pics of that rear end set-up, and some angry shots of it's time on the track

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood
    The actual hydraulic set-up appears to be quite simple, combining this with drive to the rear wheels would be where things maybe become more complicated?

    Now, this would be a great car to get along to one of the CCCNSW tech days, they have already had a look at the RR system, where are you Craig?

    I'd love to know more about it, why Peugeot went down this path as opposed to a more conventional set-up. Sounds like a very special beast Peter, you must get some pics of that rear end set-up, and some angry shots of it's time on the track

    Cheers
    Chris
    I think it was something to do with restricted suspension travel due to limited space with the rear drive mechanicals tucked away in there.
    With the self levelling you don't lose travel when loaded up.
    Graham

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I've so far resisted driving it on the track. As there were only 398 made, parts are a bit scarce.

    With AWD and Torsen rear diff, grip is not an issue. I'll take some pics. on the weekend.

    I'd be happy to come along to a CCCNSW tech day. I've been meaning to join anyway.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  12. #12
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    I'd be happy to come along to a CCCNSW tech day. I've been meaning to join anyway.
    Indeed. This would be great to look at on a hoist at Con Cars. It's a shame there doesn't seem to be any more tech days there. I actually enjoyed wrestling with the XM that day
    Regards,

    Simon

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    I have traditionally written the Mi16x4 off because I assumed there really wouldn't be that much of a difference in the handling and also the lack of parts and their cost. As well as the slight reduction in straight line performance.

    But I have to say given Peter's account, the thought of getting one is definitely appealing given we have so many here, relatively anyway.

    I have seen them go from anywhere between $3995 to $6000NZ.

    On a day to day basis Peter is the handling difference really that pronounced?

    Sounds like the x4 is a pretty impressive drive, imagine how amazing the proper 405 T16 drives with the same chassis and a full blown 220hp turbocharged motor.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis

    On a day to day basis Peter is the handling difference really that pronounced?
    Yep. Lighter steering, smooooth ride. As soon as you turn the wheel you know you're driving something special. As you turn it more you say, well that's impressive, then turn it some more and say, well now I'm scaring myself. Then finally you straighten up and realise that you'd chickened out before the car reached it limits - neutral to the end.

    Another 60-80hp would be awesome.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Yep. Lighter steering, smooooth ride. As soon as you turn the wheel you know you're driving something special. As you turn it more you say, well that's impressive, then turn it some more and say, well now I'm scaring myself. Then finally you straighten up and realise that you'd chickened out before the car reached it limits - neutral to the end.

    Another 60-80hp would be awesome.
    Where on earth did you find one of those in Australia?

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Bought it off a friend. It was privately imported 12 or so years ago. I'm going to start restoring it soon. It's a low mileage car but has a lot of sun damage. There's at least one more at Auto Paris in Melbourne.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  17. #17
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    Hi, hopefully this thread can be revived, I have a crashed Mi16x4 I need to remove the rear suspension from. (brought it as a wreck with front suspension and chassis damage, engine and drivetrain OK)

    I'd like some advice on the correct and safe way to de-pressurise the rear sphere/system. Any tips from the Citroen people?.

    Thanks, Simon

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    Quote Originally Posted by slon001
    Hi, hopefully this thread can be revived, I have a crashed Mi16x4 I need to remove the rear suspension from. (brought it as a wreck with front suspension and chassis damage, engine and drivetrain OK)

    I'd like some advice on the correct and safe way to de-pressurise the rear sphere/system. Any tips from the Citroen people?.

    Thanks, Simon
    I removed the engine and gearbox from a crashed BX recently and just cut through the lines with sidecutterrs, no pressure, no problems.
    Graham

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