HELP!!!!! 504 very close to becoming scrap metal
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Default HELP!!!!! 504 very close to becoming scrap metal

    help needed desperatly

    ive changed the head gasket on my 504 about 6 months ago, now the alert among you would think "ok, so he changed it and got it running and now somethings gone wrong"............................................ ...........well, i havnt even gotten it running yet.......

    I've spent the last 6 months ^%$&#@*($^@&*(##%^@&*(%[email protected]*ing around trying to get it to run...........compression is good, tapets are all adjusted to recomended gap.......its the bloody useless ignition that wont work.........it just keeps poping and farting

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    what have i done......

    >set up countless times useing the flywheel
    >set up countless times useing timing plate on front
    >tryed 2 sets of new plugs and leads
    >new points
    >new condenser
    >adjusted dizi, at first very slightly, now even dramatically: retarded (1/4) turn, mucked around for hours and hours
    >i have flattened the battery several times and i have used half a tank of fuel in the 505 while useing jumper leads to try and get it going
    >BLAA BLAA BLAA BLAA BLAA BLAA BLAA BLAA BLAA

    please excuse the smart arse nature of this post but i have just about had enough of mucking with this car and if it isnt running very soon im going to snap and call a tow truck...........

    the firing order in the book is so vauge (i cant spell) it can be interpreted two ways....

    either CYL #1 fires then #3 then #4 then #2
    or CYL #1 fires then #4 then #2 then #3

    i need help this is driving me nuts

    please if you have pictures of under the bonnet maybe i could copy your car.............or easy to follow steps instead of the stupid repair manual..........or anything at all.......a picture with the dizi cap off and CYL#1 at top dead centre........

    i have a mechanic friend who will also be coming over on thursday to have a look, he has owned many a peugeot and citroen in the past and even if he cant get it to work.................then keep an eye out for a cheap 504 in the forsale section........

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default 504 Problems

    First of all go and do something else for a while - you sound too frustrated to keep working on the car.

    The firing order is 1 3 4 2, remember for Mr Peugeot number 1 is at the REAR and number 4 at the front of the engine.


    Best way to set up dizzy:

    Get piece if 5 mm diameter rod about 400 mm long, have a look at on the top of bellhousing near the back the engine, you will see a hole, drop the rod into the hole and gently rotate the engine , sooner or later it will drop into a slot in the flywheel - STOP TURNING THE ENGINE.

    This sets up where number 1 cylinder should be firing.

    I now reference 12:00 to directly in front of car

    Turn the distributor until the vacuum advance unit points to about 4:00, with the points just open (on crest of cam). Lock the dizzy. Remove the rod from the bellhousing

    Offer up the distributor cap and note which HT lead the distributor rotor is pointing at - plug in lead and connect to cylinder 1 (rear of car)


    The distributor rotates clockwise, so moving clockwise around the leads next is 3 , then 4 (front), then 2

    You should get it started at this setting and use a timing light off the maker plate on the crank pulley to get the timing dead right

    Good luck

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac
    First of all go and do something else for a while - you sound too frustrated to keep working on the car.

    The firing order is 1 3 4 2, remember for Mr Peugeot number 1 is at the REAR and number 4 at the front of the engine.


    Best way to set up dizzy:

    Get piece if 5 mm diameter rod about 400 mm long, have a look at on the top of bellhousing near the back the engine, you will see a hole, drop the rod into the hole and gently rotate the engine , sooner or later it will drop into a slot in the flywheel - STOP TURNING THE ENGINE.

    This sets up where number 1 cylinder should be firing.

    I now reference 12:00 to directly in front of car

    Turn the distributor until the vacuum advance unit points to about 4:00, with the points just open (on crest of cam). Lock the dizzy. Remove the rod from the bellhousing

    Offer up the distributor cap and note which HT lead the distributor rotor is pointing at - plug in lead and connect to cylinder 1 (rear of car)


    The distributor rotates clockwise, so moving clockwise around the leads next is 3 , then 4 (front), then 2

    You should get it started at this setting and use a timing light off the maker plate on the crank pulley to get the timing dead right

    Good luck

    OK, thanks mate, i will definatly try that as soon as i get the chance, (this arvo)


    one thing......... from memory, the vacum advance thing on my dizi was originally pointing at the rear of the altinater, which would make it about 10:00 o'clock, so that would meen that ive got it 180 degrees out????

    and theres two holes in the top of the bellhousing, the book shows the rod in the hole right next to one of the bolts, the other one is about an inch around to the left from it..............which one is the correct one, the one next to the bolt i presume????

    and when i did that the first time i had to turn the motor half a rev before i found the hole in the flywheel, does that meen that i missed the correct hole??? or should it be about that far around???

    ive really made a mess of it havnt I lol lol

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Help!! 504...

    Abc..
    Last thing first. The timing notch on your flywheel not where it should be?
    Is it possible that the flywheel was fitted one or two bolts out of the correct position? This was possible on the 404 engine.

    You mentioned earlier that you have a mechanic friend coming to sort things out. Now if he's been around the trade for a while he will politely listen to what you have done. Then he will ask you to dissapear for an hour or so. This is so you wont be over his shoulder telling him "I've done all that".

    I will gladly bet all your money your friend will have your 504 up and running in no time.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default dizzy position

    Quote Originally Posted by 123abc
    OK, thanks mate, i will definatly try that as soon as i get the chance, (this arvo)


    one thing......... from memory, the vacum advance thing on my dizi was originally pointing at the rear of the altinater, which would make it about 10:00 o'clock, so that would meen that ive got it 180 degrees out????

    and theres two holes in the top of the bellhousing, the book shows the rod in the hole right next to one of the bolts, the other one is about an inch around to the left from it..............which one is the correct one, the one next to the bolt i presume????

    and when i did that the first time i had to turn the motor half a rev before i found the hole in the flywheel, does that meen that i missed the correct hole??? or should it be about that far around???

    ive really made a mess of it havnt I lol lol
    No you haven't made a "mess" you are in the deep end and starting to swim, nearly all of us started this way. You are learning from the school of hard knocks.

    The purpose of AF is to help...

    Using the method I suggested (provided the flywheel is correctly fitted: Thanks Wildbeest) it doesn't really matter where the vacuum advance points, if it was towards the alternator put it back that way.

    What does matter is where the dissy rotor points when the rod is in, this must be number 1, simply follow round clockwise from no 1 in the firing order replacing the leads.

    There is only one slot in the flywheel so just keep turning until you find it, if you miss the first time, keep turning... Don't forget to take the rod out before tryingo start, from hard experience they are difficult to remove when bent !

    The book, I asssume shows the correct hole.

    You do have to be careful that you have some room to rotate the dizzy to adjust timing later 'tho. So make sure the vacuum advance isn't jammed against the carby manifold where you set up the position of number 1.

    If the fly wheel is on wrongly then there is another procedure - if it still coughs and f*rts and won't start I will tell you the other way...

    regards


    Robert

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Abc..
    Last thing first. The timing notch on your flywheel not where it should be?
    Is it possible that the flywheel was fitted one or two bolts out of the correct position? This was possible on the 404 engine.

    You mentioned earlier that you have a mechanic friend coming to sort things out. Now if he's been around the trade for a while he will politely listen to what you have done. Then he will ask you to dissapear for an hour or so. This is so you wont be over his shoulder telling him "I've done all that".

    I will gladly bet all your money your friend will have your 504 up and running in no time.

    we get along pretty well, we've done a few silly things with old peugoets before but wen it gets serious he generally likes to have me nearby so he can teach me and then he doesnt have to help me with it again....lol

    hmmmm, bugger about the flywheel thing, i remember one car i pulled the motor out of had a little notch that went into a slot on the end of the crank, so it remained in line, but it must have been something other then a pug (i cant remember what sort of car it was but i do remember haveing to put the little notch in...lol)

    ive never had the motor out of this particular car before so i dunno if its inline or not, ah well.

    i hate electrics, i loath them, this may have something to do with the ignition problems......ah well, thanks for help guys, ill have a look tommorow, its dark outside now........

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    ITS ALIVE!!!

    yes, the 504 lives to fight another day.............................

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


    turns out the flywheel is in the wrong spot, so number one isnt at TDC when the screwdriver drops in the slot!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    i would still be mucking around with it for months to come if it wasnt for AF and its members

    how good is it to get back into a 504, 505's are nice but ya cant beat an old 504.........

    anyways, back down on earth, away from cloud nine.........

    it runs a bit hot, now i know i put the gasket on the right way, i triple checked it when i put it on.................turning on the heater makes no differance.............richening the mixture makes no differance......................so what could it be i wonder????????????????????

    any thoughts??????

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    check your timing

    the other thing is when it blew the head gasket did any gunk flow through into the radiator and block some of it up

    maybe a good flush out is in order
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  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    check your timing

    the other thing is when it blew the head gasket did any gunk flow through into the radiator and block some of it up

    maybe a good flush out is in order

    i will fine tune the timing tommorow morning...........

    i put i differant radiator in because the old one was a bit sad..........this one that went in came off one of the wrecks that we used to have and it was in fairly good nick.........

    even with the flywheel out of wack, i should still be able to use the pully on the front to fine tune it shouldnt i?

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Yes,
    The pulley on the front with the timing marks in it are only able to go ONE way because of the woodruff key.
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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    Yes,
    The pulley on the front with the timing marks in it are only able to go ONE way because of the woodruff key.

    fantastic! i basically knew that that would be the case, but weirder things have happen with this car in the past few months so i just wanted to make sure.......lol........im sure you'll understand.

    well, now that the head gasket is ticked off the list of "to-do's", all thats left now is shock absorbers, hand brake, and the big ouch one, panel beating.....(or as i like to refer to it, wallet beating)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    Yes,
    The pulley on the front with the timing marks in it are only able to go ONE way because of the woodruff key.
    Doesn't the flywheel only go on in one position. The main thing is it's running

    Jarrod

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrods
    Doesn't the flywheel only go on in one position. The main thing is it's running

    Jarrod
    I wondered about that too, all the Renault engines I've ever pulled down have had one position only for the flywheel, and I thought Pug's be the same but no-one has said so till now.
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123abc
    fantastic! i basically knew that that would be the case, but weirder things have happen with this car in the past few months so i just wanted to make sure.......lol........im sure you'll understand.

    well, now that the head gasket is ticked off the list of "to-do's", all thats left now is shock absorbers, hand brake, and the big ouch one, panel beating.....(or as i like to refer to it, wallet beating)
    Add to the list a thermostat. You mentioned a dud radiator, so a cheap insurance item is a thermostat. I take it that the waterpump had a good seeing to when the head was off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    I wondered about that too, all the Renault engines I've ever pulled down have had one position only for the flywheel, and I thought Pug's be the same but no-one has said so till now.
    Yes, the flywheel definitely goes on in one position only, maybe you were using the wrong hole on the bell housing? The earlier flywheels (1600 or 403) can go on in any position.
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma
    Add to the list a thermostat. You mentioned a dud radiator, so a cheap insurance item is a thermostat. I take it that the waterpump had a good seeing to when the head was off?

    The feeling of elation when a once sick and or dead car springs back to life....

    yes, thermostat will be going in this week when i get the chance to go and get one.......

    and i never even looked at the water pump, it went straight in the bin and a brand spanker went on in its place......

    as for the hot running temp i mentioned earlier, well i fine tuned the timing with a light etc......the timing was found to be a bit far advanced, so after adujusting it it now runs on the halfway mark in all driving conditions, the way it should be......all the little things that must be looked at after a head gasket.........its all coming together now though........

    yes, the feeling is quite nice, after walking past it everymorning sitting dead in the front yard for quite a while, its nice to get it going again..........even dads happy, he used to drive it to work.....and when it blew up and i said well, maybe its time for it to move on, he said no way, fix it up, its a nice car for running around to and from work and to the shops............and he doesnt even like peugeots!!!!

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Yes, the flywheel definitely goes on in one position only, maybe you were using the wrong hole on the bell housing? The earlier flywheels (1600 or 403) can go on in any position.
    Graham

    hmmm, i was wondering about that.............however, being an auto, i wonder if that stupid littel square plate might be mucking things up somewhere...........

    im happy now my cars going but maybe we should get into this to save other people the same trouble....i will go and have a look at the spare engine i have at another place, it has an auto flywheel......

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 504!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 123abc
    hmmm, i was wondering about that.............however, being an auto, i wonder if that stupid littel square plate might be mucking things up somewhere...........

    im happy now my cars going but maybe we should get into this to save other people the same trouble....i will go and have a look at the spare engine i have at another place, it has an auto flywheel......
    123abc,
    The plot thickens. So it's an automatic?
    I believe the flywheel/driveplate for the auto doesn't have a timing location slot?
    The main thing, you've got it going.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    123abc,
    The plot thickens. So it's an automatic?
    I believe the flywheel/driveplate for the auto doesn't have a timing location slot?
    The main thing, you've got it going.


    the flywheel certainly does have a timing slot..........i went and checked the old engine in the other yard...............

    and it can be put on in any possition, it doesnt have a locating device...

    ah well, at least now the next person who has this trouble will be able to find out exactly whats wrong and be able to get around it....

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