New exhaust brings more blue smoke
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  1. #1
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    Default New exhaust brings more blue smoke

    i have an R10, that recently (saturday) got a new exhaust system put on.

    it seems however, since then, it is blowing smoke when idling and when running through 1st and 2nd gears at higher rpm, then when it's cruisin it tends to be fine.

    i'm unsure what this could be, as it may be result of a few things

    firstly, a few days beforehand, my oil warning light came on, and 2 secs later it backfired and cut out, so i parked it until i got some new oil (which went from a BP Visco 2000 20W-40 into a Castrol GTX 3, 15W-40)....now when i checked the dipstick after it cut out, the oil was at the "low" level, but still had about 2cm on the dipstick covered in oil, so it was low, but not gone. i've been running the GTX 3 ever since (and did not notice much blue smoke at all)

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    now after the new exhaust it seems to be getting a lil worse...
    could this be b'cos of how they've put the parts they took out back together?
    could it be excess oil burning off?
    i know it smelt of WD40 after it was put on, so would this be burning off?

    another problem i noticed, was i took the crankcase off and it let out (either a lil smoke, or it might have been dust), the filter does soon need replacing (and if any1 knows the appropriate filter to suit the R10, could u let me know, as all i've seen are too small, too big)

    i jus thought i'd ask here, before seeking further advice.

    thanx

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Just sounds like the motors getting a little tired to me. Blue smoke == engine oil being burnt by the motor (maybe your just noticing it more now because since you found the oil low you have been checking).

    BTW: black smoke == unburnt fuel. Blue smoke is not good

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  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    A few reasonable prospects...

    1. You let it go too long. How much oil was still in the engine?

    2. The new oil, being a lower viscosity, is finding its way past the rings much more easily.

    3. You are, as Shane says, possibly more sensitive to noticing the smoke because you're aware something has happened. Not a bad thing.

    Suggest you top the oil up, note the mileage, keep a close check on it and see how much it actually uses. Also, next change, go back to the heavier oil. But not a heavier one again, I don't think that necessarily helps.

  4. #4
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    My suggestion is also the oil. The 15W mix would be too thin. The best would be 20W50 (as originally specified), with probably something like 25W50 in the case of an older motor. Don't bother with stuff like no-smoke, that just ends up sticking to the bore and causing more smoke over time. Also with the new exhaust, the oil haze may be more obvious as there is no coating on the inside of the exhaust that may have previously absorbed some of the oil smoke.

    For a new air filter try Caravelle Imports Box Hill in Victoria.

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    i also thought it was the change of oil viscosity causing it, but wanted to check.

    Ray ::

    the warning light came on for the oil, and 2 seconds after it cut out, so i did not go any further. and when i checked the oil l8r that afternoon the dipstick read like this (try follow the illustration, lol)

    _____ specified "full" line for oil
    |
    |
    |
    _____ specified "low" line for oil (mark was on this line)
    |<<< oil
    |<<< oil
    |<<< oil
    |<<< oil

    hope that helped.

    Simon, thanx, altho i thought it took 20W 40 as per original, would 20W 50 be fine if that were the case?
    didn't think that the new exhaust being cleaner would let more smoke out, thanx, but still, the smoke still stands as a prob which i'd like to fix, lol.

    thanx for the Air filter tip, i'm in NSW, any places u know of round here? or shoul i jus order from Caravelle?
    Last edited by ADZ-R10; 10th May 2005 at 12:01 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADZ-R10
    altho i thought it took 20W 40 as per original, would 20W 50 be fine if that were the case?
    Depending on what you reference it is either 20W40 or 20W50 in most Australian contemporary info. I just wonder if they specified the thicker stuff for the (mostly) hotter Australian climate.

    I wouldn't say the exhaust would cause more smoke as such, just if the old one had a carbon/ sticky oil coating on the inside the exhaust particles would probably get scoured to a certain extent on the coating and be retained in the exhaust. With the new clean exhaust there would be no coating on the inside for the particles to stick to until one builds up. Overall it may only make less than 1% difference in the smoke I guess......

    You may as well ask me the location of Renault parts places in Oslo, I would have no idea of the closest place in Newcastle or NSW :-). Caravelle do mail order I figured they would likely be most convenient, but to make the most of the postage fee probably get them to send up a couple of oil filters with your package too.

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Hard to understand why the engine cut out...

    Were you fanging hard through a corner when the oil light came on and then the engine cut out?

    Perhaps an excess of oil got up into the rings and pistons, oiled up a plug and put our your fire? Outside chance, really, the engine would have to be pretty bad to do that I'd think.

    Anyway, keep a check on oil consumption between changes and let us know how you get on.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    These are a very low tech motor and the oil you are using is way too thin - I'm not suprised at all that it has pressure issues and is blowing smoke. If the motor has a few miles on it, some 25W50 or even a little thicker is what it wants.
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I wouldn't recommend going too much heavier...

    Some people put straight 50-grade oil in old engines. All that does is hasten their demise.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I wouldn't recommend going too much heavier...

    Some people put straight 50-grade oil in old engines. All that does is hasten their demise.
    Wont argue with that. I would only put in heavier oil in a motor thats on its last legs anyway. But if the R10 motor is healthy, standard 20W50 (Shell Helix at $16 odd bucks from K Mart) is fine.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Hard to understand why the engine cut out...

    Were you fanging hard through a corner when the oil light came on and then the engine cut out?

    Perhaps an excess of oil got up into the rings and pistons, oiled up a plug and put our your fire? Outside chance, really, the engine would have to be pretty bad to do that I'd think.

    Anyway, keep a check on oil consumption between changes and let us know how you get on.
    no it was barely at 5mph, as i was taking off from my house at 6am, so i creep it up the street.

    i'm not sure whether to let this oil grade go on more, or should i switch it back str8 away? will it cause much damage? (service due in about 1500 miles or a bit less)

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Ah... probably just cold.

    And maybe you were parked on a slope? So the oil wasn't picking up? Or maybe the light came on because of the unduly low revs...

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default New exhaust more smoke.

    Adz,
    It may be nothing more than a rat that has crept into the exh. system as it sat in the warehouse. Are you getting a kebab restaurant smell accompanying your blue smoke?
    The ex rat has by now blocked your pipes causing the engine to cut out.

  14. #14
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    As usual with this forum, lots of good suggestions.

    My experience of Castrol GTX oils in the Sierra engines has not been rewarding, & I switched many years ago to Valvoline XLD grade or better. The main issue was in fact oil consumption increasing with the use of GTX. This type of problem has been reported with several other types of engines in other makes of cars over the years.

    Ryco still supply oil filters (type Z71) for these engines, and I cannot remember for the moment the correct P/No for the air filter.

    In my Peugeots (2 x 505's) I use Penrite HPR 30. A great oil!

    Is your R10 engine a standard 1108cc (original spec), or has it been 'upgraded' to a R12 1.3 or 1.4 type engine? Any idea of the miles the engine has travelled, service history etc?

    If you are uncertain about the engines internal condition or history, do a compression check (engine hot, plugs removed, throttle wide open & one cylinder (obviously) at a time. A good engine should give you a minimum of 180 psi per cylinder. However, if your oil control rings are suspect (carboned up or lost their tension) this won't necessarily be reflected in the compression figures.

    Good luck,

    Cheers,
    Kim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIMDEB
    As usual with this forum, lots of good suggestions.

    My experience of Castrol GTX oils in the Sierra engines has not been rewarding, & I switched many years ago to Valvoline XLD grade or better. The main issue was in fact oil consumption increasing with the use of GTX. This type of problem has been reported with several other types of engines in other makes of cars over the years.

    Ryco still supply oil filters (type Z71) for these engines, and I cannot remember for the moment the correct P/No for the air filter.

    In my Peugeots (2 x 505's) I use Penrite HPR 30. A great oil!

    Is your R10 engine a standard 1108cc (original spec), or has it been 'upgraded' to a R12 1.3 or 1.4 type engine? Any idea of the miles the engine has travelled, service history etc?

    If you are uncertain about the engines internal condition or history, do a compression check (engine hot, plugs removed, throttle wide open & one cylinder (obviously) at a time. A good engine should give you a minimum of 180 psi per cylinder. However, if your oil control rings are suspect (carboned up or lost their tension) this won't necessarily be reflected in the compression figures.

    Good luck,

    Cheers,
    Kim.
    i've noticed the GTX is being consumed a shytload more than the norm, 1/2 of it's gone since i put almost a full lot in last week (this is with a slight leak near the sump however)

    i shall look at penrite this week, as i have seen twice this week, that i should use it.

    R10 engine is stock yes.

    88000 miles, and i'm almost certain thats the actual amount, previous owner was a once, twice a week driver for most of the time (cept for when it was new, and he was younger)

    and wildebeest? ummmmmmm? what the?

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    change the oil

    if oil consumption is still up and smoke is still a problem then run the next heat range up in plugs and that should kill most of the smoke problem but won't cure the oil consumption
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    It's important that you don't guess the consumption...

    Always fill carefully so you get it exactly full. Give the oil time to run down, park in the same spot, on dead flat ground if possible.

    Then record the kms (miles?), write them down, get a book and put everything into it.

  18. #18
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    thankyou all so very much for giving me advice and options, i appreciate it all.

    and it seems to be almost the same ppl helping me all the time, so this is great!

    i shall get new oil and oil filter, and see how the thicker grade goes again ( i knew something was fishy when i said 20W-40 and my mechanic said 15W-40)

    will notify how it all goes.


    rather than starting a new topic, i thought i'd mention this ::

    as i checked the engine bay out yesterday, i noticed the line from the fuel pump up into the carby had some very noticable air bubbles in it.....i don't see this as normal, and was wondering what hindrence this outlays onto my engine?

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    That's the sort of thing you'd notice while driving if it's really a problem...

    Are you having trouble sometimes when it's hot? Start up, drive a short distance and then it dies on you?

    And how come you can see bubbles? That line should normally be opaque.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIMDEB
    My experience of Castrol GTX oils in the Sierra engines has not been rewarding,

    Ryco still supply oil filters (type Z71) for these engines, and I cannot remember for the moment the correct P/No for the air filter.
    I've had the opposite experience with GTX. This is the only stuff I use on the R4 and 12. Very little oil consumption on the R4 with 50,000km, and the 12 has 140,000km with exclusive use of GTX2 with negligible oil consumption and no sludge. Oil changes are generally every 5,000k's with a filter change.

    As for the filter, I've hard that the Ryco don't have a pressure relief valve inside, this was some time ago so things may now have changed, and I just use the Purflux ones from Caravelle.

  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    shouldn't it be black fuel line ?

    if the carb isn't bieng supplied enough fuel it will starve and die
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    That's the sort of thing you'd notice while driving if it's really a problem...

    Are you having trouble sometimes when it's hot? Start up, drive a short distance and then it dies on you?

    And how come you can see bubbles? That line should normally be opaque.
    only prob i have in those respects is that after it's been running hot, and i try start it, it would take 2 goes (in the morning when it's cold, it starts first time)

    i can see bubbles, so dunno why it isn't opaque

  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    No, that's not the sort of problem I mean... don't worry about the bubbles then, as you still get enough fuel up to do the job...

    You might, however, just check the lines leading up to and from the pump to make sure they're sealing all right. Any weeping when the engine's not running? It could be sucking air as well as petrol, you see. Not enough to be a problem at the moment, but maybe it would be on a stiff second gear climb up a long mountain ascent or something.

    As for seeing the bubbles, if that's a clear piece of plastic tube it will be non-standard for one thing, illegal for another and dangerous to boot... if there's a red trace through it it'll be okay.

  24. #24
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    Simon,

    Interesting your experience of GTX with the Renault engines. I cannot adequatley explain why that would be so, yet after all, Castrol do make good oils.

    I think though, the Sierra engines have typically been engines that require many miles of driving before starting to give their best performance & economy. I, and many of my friends in the R8/10 days, as well as early R12's, experienced this.

    A Sierra engine even with 10,000 miles was still tight mechanically, and would not be spinning freely until around 20-25,000 miles. Castrol GTX oils seemed to interfer with the proper bedding in process of the rings & piston bores, which resulted in some bore glazing and increasing oil consumption. Possibly the detergent action of the early GTX oils was also not helping.

    Yes, the early (30+ years ago) Ryco filters had problems with pressure relief valves, causing excess oil filter drainage after engine shut-down. This caused bearing rattle on start-up, which was not healthy. The Z71 today, and for many years, seems to be a much improved filter. I have also used the Purflux filter, which is very good.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  25. #25
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    Default alternatively......

    Alternatively no one has mentioned the other cause of oil burning - worn valve guides and/or hardened valve guide seals. The valve guide seals will get hard as much with age as distance travelled - I do not know how R10 motors are on valve guides or valve seals but my 10 Y O 205 Si, admitedly with 225 thousand ks on the clock had very brittle and therefore useless valve guide seals when I rebuilt it....This and the fact that the guides were well worn as well meant that they did not work very well - I never really noticed oil smoke but I sure got through some oil ( more than a litre in 10000Km)

    The backfire could have been caused by a sticking or partially closed inlet valve or premature ignition allowing blow back onto the manifold and carbie which in turn stops the engine because the fuel/air supply is gone... I had terrible problems with a holden 253 V8 in a bedford truck which had this problem beacuse of timing issues and a crazy 2 barrel carbie...... I eventually fitted a quadrajet and got it timed properly and the backfires into the manofold went away. I do not see the backfire as necessarily having anything at all to do with the oil burning issues - it is more likely to be a symtom of something else which drew your attention to the oil issue. Coincidence!

    I also understood that change of lubricants itself was a possible cause for problems in an ageing engine. Each oil has its own complex of oils and additives and produces its own layers of gunk in the engine, on the seals etc. Changing oils to a completely different type, especially one as notorious as GTX, with a completely different set of oil components as well as additives and detergents is likely to stir things up a lot! This could loosen and flush old deposits from the engine walls as well as the seals etc. The smoke in the crankcase breather is a dead giveaway of blowby - meaning the rings are on the way out.

    The bubbles in the fuel line, as Ray has suggested, indicate two different possible problems. One is that you ca see thorgh the fuel line so someone has possibly used ordinary plastic tubing which is not suitable..... and should be changed for proper fuel line ASAP. The second is that the bubbles them selves indicate a looming problem in the fuel system. they can only get there if there is air leaking into the fuel supply to the fuel pumpor into the pump itself. Eventually this will probably get worse and lead to fuel starvation - possibly lean running or just lackof ability to work under load. Also if air can get in under suction while the fule pump is working then petrol can get out the same hole when there is no suction so there could be a fuel leak while standing, especially on hot days if the tank is not well vented and the vapour pressure in the tank rises.... so this problem needs to be solved.

    Overall You need to be careful not to confuse coincidence with cause and effect. It sounds to me like you have several different problems all common to older cars which have been brought to your attention at the same time but which are not necessarily related.

    so you have:
    Oil burning - worn rings or valve guides ( or both!) - compression test will tell you a lot about this.
    Oil light - momentary loss of oil pressure caused by: low oil, blocked oil pickup, worn oilpump, low revs on cold engine with large clearances, loose or disconnected oil pressure sensor wire, or some combination of these.
    Backfire into manifold/carbie - sticking or badly seating valve, ignition timing, possibly mixture related?
    air in fuel line - leak in fuel pump or delivery system
    wrong fuel line material - replace.
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