505 GTI Diff ratios
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Icon7 505 GTI Diff ratios

    Does anyone know if the diff ratio for the later unleaded S2 505 GTI's is different to the leaded models?

    I drove a colleague's 1987 S2 5 speed manual GTI last weekend, and noticed that 3000 RPM coincides with 110 km/hr. On our 5 speed '84 Executive, and the '86 3 speed S2 GTI, at 3000 RPM the road speed is about 102 km/hr.

    My friend is quite confident that his speedo is accurate to within 1-2 km/hr, and I know our cars have the same degree of speedo accuracy also.

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    The difference in RPM is quite noticeable in terms of engine noise, and seems to be closer to the RPM reduction that was achieved with the 4 speed auto (with 4th gear lock-up).

    Anybody own an unleaded 505 GTI sedan and is able to offer a comparison?

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  2. #2
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I did a quick check for you on my '86 (October '85) SII 5 speed GTi, indicated 3000 rpm is indicated 110 kms/h.
    Then again, remember that PWM tachos are generally only accurate to within about 10% at best.
    Scotty

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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Icon7

    Thanks for that.

    Raises the question, therefore, as my S2 GTI is also the '86 leaded model, whether we have a tacho or speedo discrepancy.

    It just seemed coincidental that the '84 5 speed manual had similar RPM/speedo readings in top as the '86 3 speed auto.

    Is yours manual or auto?

    Cheers,
    Kim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIMDEB
    Thanks for that.

    Raises the question, therefore, as my S2 GTI is also the '86 leaded model, whether we have a tacho or speedo discrepancy.

    It just seemed coincidental that the '84 5 speed manual had similar RPM/speedo readings in top as the '86 3 speed auto.

    Is yours manual or auto?

    Cheers,
    Kim.
    Kim,

    My 86 leaded Series 2 (Oct 85) auto indicates 3000 ish (say 3050) at 100 km/h. My father's series 1 85 manual is also 3000 revs per 100km/h..... give or take 100 revs.

    Regards,

    Scott

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    climb underneath the car and clean the front area of the diff and on the vertical face will be a few numbers and letters stamped

    in this stamping will be the letter that designates the ratio of that diff

    from what has been gathered it is the 3rd digit which will be a letter that will corespond with the list that is floating around and you will then know what the diff ratio is without pulling the diff out of the car
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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    [quote]It just seemed coincidental that the '84 5 speed manual had similar RPM/speedo readings in top as the '86 3 speed auto[/quote

    not realy.. im sure it was done very purposefully given that that is the sweet spot for the engine , makes sence to gear it in a mannor that you'll always have enough torque do to anything.

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    Kim,

    My 85/86 leaded (nominally) 3-speed auto also reads 100kph at 3,000 rpm, is really only doing 94kph.

    Warwick.

    By the way, I had to go to a factory in Sheehan Rd last week. First time in about 10 years. Unrecognizable!

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Actually it won't have...

    To get the same revs/kmh in top gear with the 3-speed auto and the 5-speed manual there is a huge difference in final drive ratio required.

    A 4.11:1 rear end with the 5-speed would call for about 3.5:1 with the auto.

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    Fellow Frogger! Ranger's Avatar
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    This link may be usefull or at least cause more discussion

    http://www.vectorbd.com/peugeot/505gear.html


    Cheers Ranger
    "The defendant is no gentleman, but that is neither here nor there. We find for the defendant, much as we dislike him." A.P. Herbert

  10. #10
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    Icon7

    Thanks to all the replys.

    I guess we still need a bit more info re the unleaded vs the leaded cars.

    Also, I will try & get some ratio readings using the gearing code as added to this post.

    Ray, I did not realise the diff gearing would be that far apart with manual vs auto. I wonder then if the 4 speed ZF with the top gear lock-up retained the same differential as the then current 5 speed manual?

    Cheers,
    Kim.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i'd say they would be slightly different

    slightly off topic but i am kinda on the hunt for a 4spd auto to fit into the 604 at some stage

    no hurry but if anyone hears of one can you let me know please
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'd agree with that... I'd expect them to be slightly different...

    Like maybe 4.11 in the manual and 3.889 in the auto. The auto would therefore buzz harder at a given speed than the manual in 5th... so the tachos shouldn't read the same.

    It would be nice if someone knew for sure, however.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    manual GTI's have a 3.89:1 diff in them

    auto's i'm not too sure
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  14. #14
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    Pugrambo, Are you sure about the GTI diff ratio ? I can guarantee my GTI diff ratio is a 4.11.

  15. #15
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob D
    Pugrambo, Are you sure about the GTI diff ratio ? I can guarantee my GTI diff ratio is a 4.11.

    thats the info i have here

    were there any changes between years ?

    i know 604's changed diff ratios 3 times in this country alone let alone overseas
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Obviously the 604s with a 5-speed would have a different rear end to the autos... and the diesels yet another one...

    I frankly can't see anything other than a 4.1 in a GTi manual, as it would mean a 3.5 in an auto if they had the 3.9 in the manual. Where is Gus? He'd know, he pulled a manual GTi apart. I'm sure he'd support Bob D in this.

  17. #17
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob D
    Pugrambo, Are you sure about the GTI diff ratio ? I can guarantee my GTI diff ratio is a 4.11.
    That would seem unusual for a sedan. The wagons had 4.11:1. Is yours a wagon/familiale?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  18. #18
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    slightly off topic but i am kinda on the hunt for a 4spd auto to fit into the 604 at some stage
    What bellhousing are you planning on using? That would be a very nice setup, will the Traumatic bell housing fit onto the ZF box?
    Otherwise, didn't the VN onwards commodores come out with a 4 speed descendant of the traumatic? Turbohydramatic 700? I know for a fact that Trimatic bellhousing - Turbo transmission adapter plates are readily avaliable. You'd have to make a custom rear housing though, I suspect. But those gearboxes would be as cheap as chips. $100 will get you a good one from the wreckers and a spare to boot!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  19. #19
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i will have to look into the comode trannies

    as for a bell housing i was just going to adapt but once i got a box i could have a good look as to what i would need

    a 4spd auto would be good in the car and the ability to lock up in 4th is very appealing
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Demannu
    That would seem unusual for a sedan. The wagons had 4.11:1. Is yours a wagon/familiale?
    With the gap to the next ratio being as large as it is (4.6:1), I wouldn't be surprised if the sedan and wagon were the same...

    It would really only affect how much time one spent in fifth gear.

    And the GR sedans were 4.11:1 as well. What were the automatics in them?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    With the gap to the next ratio being as large as it is (4.6:1), I wouldn't be surprised if the sedan and wagon were the same...

    It would really only affect how much time one spent in fifth gear.

    And the GR sedans were 4.11:1 as well. What were the automatics in them?
    I have a 4.2 wagon diff centre (505 SR).
    The GTis were supposed to have 3.89 diff ratios but mine certainly hasn't, feels like a 4.11.
    Graham

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Of course there was a 4.2... I have one in my 504 wagon, don't I?

    That was a subtle difference between the 504 wagon and the 504 Familiale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    With the gap to the next ratio being as large as it is (4.6:1), I wouldn't be surprised if the sedan and wagon were the same...

    It would really only affect how much time one spent in fifth gear.
    I think you may be right Ray.

    I'm not sure if it was the same all the way throught the model life, but My 86 Manual GTi sedan tyre placard reccomend 195/60 15" tyres while my folks' 93 Auto GTi wagon lists 195/65 15" (on steel rims). If these numbers remained for both cars, the higher profile on the wagon would have effectively lowered (?) the gearing anyway.
    eatpeople04

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i have read on here that dave mcbean mentioned that there is a small amount of variance built into the speedo drives in the 505's to allow slightly different tyre sizes to be applied to the cars and yet still read pretty close to the correct speed
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  25. #25
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    From way back Peugeot used the same speedo drive on cars with different rear axle ratios... or that allowed for larger tyre sizes combined with different rear axle ratios...

    They specified 175s on wagons and 155s on sedans, for instance, so a 4.6 diff and a 4.2 diff would read pretty much the same. So they had the same speedo drive.

    I seriously doubt that there was ever any 'variance built in' to any speedo drives... there simply can't be!
    Last edited by Ray Bell; 4th May 2005 at 02:08 PM.

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