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  1. #1
    Member 406bliss's Avatar
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    Default Robinson Crusoe

    Hello out there,

    Has anyone fitted the Eibach springs to a 306.?
    Mine is a N5 1999 style 3dr.
    Was it worthwhile?
    Pros/ Cons are the shocks up to it?
    Also what of the 195/55, 15" or 205/45 16"has anyone done this over the std 14"?
    Ideally in combo with the Eibach, comments?

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    Esscargo used to do this I think, do they still exist? Do they have a new name number etc.

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    Member 406bliss's Avatar
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    Default Tyres

    Found some threads on this. Not exactly conclusive are they.
    Oh well, perhaps just some good rubber.

    Has anybody else put 195/60 14 in place of 185/65 14 ?

    David

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    You could run some 15s with 195/55R15 which could improve things. But what's your objective?

    I had my GTi6 lowered for a bit and it handled like a pile of poo.
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by 406bliss
    Has anyone fitted the Eibach springs to a 306.?
    Mine is a N5 1999 style 3dr.
    Was it worthwhile?
    Pros/ Cons are the shocks up to it?
    Also what of the 195/55, 15" or 205/45 16"has anyone done this over the std 14"?
    Ideally in combo with the Eibach, comments?

    Esscargo used to do this I think, do they still exist? Do they have a new name number etc.
    Do I recall that someone was looking for them here a couple of days ago?

    Anyway, though you haven't stated what your aims are, I will weigh in with the recommendation I give to everyone...

    Start with the shocks. They are the item that's easiest for the manufacturer to compromise and offer them the biggest saving by so doing. Springs might cost them 50c more or less in one size or another, but they can save $50 on a shock absorber and still expect it should last out warranty and give a reasonable degree of control that will satisfy most buyers.

    Once you have the shocks, I always recommend to people to try them with standard springs and see if they're happy with the original ride height with the greater control of the springs. It's only from that point, I believe, that you can make a rational choice to lower or not lower a car.

    In other words, get the car as good as it's going to get with the standard setup before you go changing what the Peugeot engineers slaved months to get right before it went into production.

    Of course, you may want to use it on the track more than the road, but that's unusual. Then I would say get them at the same time... or if you're really keen, get coilover Spax with the Spax springs.

    Both Koni and Spax have adjustable damping, so there are some nice choices available.

    If you want to know more up this line, just e.mail me:

    [email protected]

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    my mother lowered her 206 and had nothing but trouble untill it was worked out the the dealership had stuffed up the geometry of the front end

    once that was rectified the car was brilliant and still is

    it handles much better than it did originally and still has the original shocks in it but eibach springs and the rear reset to the lowered setting

    of course if your car is a few years old then shocks may need looking at so go with that first before setting to and putting lower springs in

    mums car was pretty much near new when she had it all done

    just beware that whoever does it for you they do it right otherwise you will have a car like she did jump and skip all over the road

    she loves it now though
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

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    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Start with the shocks. They are the item that's easiest for the manufacturer to compromise and offer them the biggest saving by so doing. Springs might cost them 50c more or less in one size or another, but they can save $50 on a shock absorber and still expect it should last out warranty and give a reasonable degree of control that will satisfy most buyers.
    Do you think this applies to Peugeot as well Ray? I don't know so am wondering. Just that I've heard many talk about how Peugeot are one of the few to make their own shocks and the oem shocks supposed unbeatable quality?
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    Fellow Frogger! mmm...CORNERS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 406bliss
    Hello out there,

    Has anyone fitted the Eibach springs to a 306.?
    Mine is a N5 1999 style 3dr.
    Was it worthwhile?
    Pros/ Cons are the shocks up to it?
    Also what of the 195/55, 15" or 205/45 16"has anyone done this over the std 14"?
    Ideally in combo with the Eibach, comments?

    Esscargo used to do this I think, do they still exist? Do they have a new name number etc.
    I have a N5 3-door style and have lowered with eibach springs / standard shocks. The car seems to handle well, espescially through longer swepers. The ride is a little more jiggly,a bit like a car with 40 profile tyres. The rear has becomes quite stiff and twitchy also. Stick with 195/55/15. This is the best tyre size for the 306.
    The car has done 30,000k's since lowering and the front and rear shocks are buggered. I'm fitting a set of Koni reds (thanks Ray ) on thursday. Hopefully this will fix the crashing and floaty feelings!

    I would say, apart from looks(looks cool though!) there is no benefit to lowering. I found it ok driving wise, but not massivley better than stock.


    I did a bit of investigating, and you could buy a complete GTi6 setup from peugeot for about $1400 (shocks/springs) could be an option?

    Overall, Buy a set of 15" wheels, get good 195/55 tyres, see how it goes. The maybe go shocks, then springs. Personall preference though. If done properly, it should be fun to drive, provided you expect to sacrifice the good ride that pugs come standard with.

    You'l probably lower it anyway as logic tends to play no part in these things! PM me if you want more detail.
    Cheers
    Tristan

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by U Turn
    Do you think this applies to Peugeot as well Ray? I don't know so am wondering. Just that I've heard many talk about how Peugeot are one of the few to make their own shocks and the oem shocks supposed unbeatable quality?
    Yes, I do think it still applies... if only because Konis will be newer and they can be adjusted beyond the range of the originals. I wouldn't be so rash with others... I think that perhaps Bilsteins were on a par with the Koni originals, so a pointless exercise to go that way. Sachs etc were always below the Koni level, but I don't know which way either have gone in the past twenty years.

    At the very least Konis will lean a little more to the sporty side than the originals... so if someone is altering their suspension it's unlikely they're doing it for a more comfortable ride. This is doubly so when talking about lowering...

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    Member 406bliss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmm...CORNERS
    I have a N5 3-door style and have lowered with eibach springs / standard shocks. The car seems to handle well, espescially through longer swepers. The ride is a little more jiggly,a bit like a car with 40 profile tyres. The rear has becomes quite stiff and twitchy also. Stick with 195/55/15. This is the best tyre size for the 306.
    The car has done 30,000k's since lowering and the front and rear shocks are buggered. I'm fitting a set of Koni reds (thanks Ray ) on thursday. Hopefully this will fix the crashing and floaty feelings!

    I would say, apart from looks(looks cool though!) there is no benefit to lowering. I found it ok driving wise, but not massivley better than stock.


    I did a bit of investigating, and you could buy a complete GTi6 setup from peugeot for about $1400 (shocks/springs) could be an option?


    Overall, Buy a set of 15" wheels, get good 195/55 tyres, see how it goes. The maybe go shocks, then springs. Personall preference though. If done properly, it should be fun to drive, provided you expect to sacrifice the good ride that pugs come standard with.

    You'l probably lower it anyway as logic tends to play no part in these things! PM me if you want more detail.
    Cheers
    Tristan
    Well,
    Gti6 setup is not just shocks and springs as i understand it has different front stabilizer, rear torsion bar, even some front steering differences, not to mention a heavier engine, which all work cohesively.

    Took the car for a bit of a blat over some countryish roads on the weekend and it really is pretty good standard even at 120,000 kms.
    I do notice that especially on downhill into a corner the initiall turn in is slightly offputing as the car compresses a little then finds its mark to hold line through the corner. My 406 doesn't do this.

    The shocks seem fine, but when really into it, the car does move around (talk to you) more than a Gti6. On some second/third gear corners it feels like it will turn itself inside out before letting go and the tyres run out way before the chassis does.

    Speaking to esscargo some time ago the slightly lower springs change the suspension/steering enough to take the hesitation out, but I'm not that keen on lowering the car, especially the rear. Are esscargo still around ?
    Apparently the 30mm lower eibach will vary car to car as Just one type for all 306 models? Did your front ride heigt drop?

    Tyre wise I have a set of 15" xsi ,s16 wheels here. They have old pirelli 185/55 tyres. We tried them on the car and they felt weird, my wife wouldn't drive it and I know that 195/55 is the N5 size, but now a little hesitant to fork out for the Pilot Precedas.

    Previous experience in a 4AGE corolla hatch proved that change from 175/65 14 to 185/60 14 sharpened up the steering nicely. Also we turned the front strut tops around to give more castor the results were brilliant without altering stiffness ride height, wheels or appearance. This was the subject of a wheels/motor article way back then.

    While the tyre change might help the steering in a jap car my old 505 got better grip from 195/65 but less 'on centre' steering feel than the 185/70, its a contact patch thing.

    Has anybody else seen the 1999 press release promoting peugeots sports kits at the time which feature eibach and 16" 205/45 tyres which they endorsed and claim were belchamps tested ? what do you make of this ? Perhaps the rear suspension was not altered ? In a traditional setup more rake was considered good for the steering feel.

    I'll attach it.

    Would like to here how your konis turn out. As my 505 front struts had done 350,000 without disgraceing themselves.

    In short I would like a bit more grip and steering response to match the chassis ability and to remove the offputing hesitation/float when your really up it. As the lightest of the 306 models these cars go surprisingly well, I'm soon to fit a set of gti6 headers, I've had them under my feet for almost two years, debating which car to put them on. Wife says 306.I'll post Dyno graphs when they are done. I have graphs for the 406 and the 306 will soon be done before and after its remap. The 406 graph is in 4th gear and picture perfect compared to a gti6 3rd gear run posted recently.

    enough already
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! mmm...CORNERS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 406bliss
    Well,
    As the lightest of the 306 models these cars go surprisingly well, I'm soon to fit a set of gti6 headers, I've had them under my feet for almost two years, debating which car to put them on. Wife says 306.I'll post Dyno graphs when they are done. I have graphs for the 406 and the 306 will soon be done before and after its remap. The 406 graph is in 4th gear and picture perfect compared to a gti6 3rd gear run posted recently.

    enough already
    You have GTi6 Headers and they are not on the 306????? get them on!!! Couldnt guess at the difference, but I'm sure the top end would benefit.

    If you just want better grip and initial turn in, This sounds like tyres.
    I am currently running Dunlop Direzzas in 195/55 R15 size, and they are excellent. I reccomend them highly. Got them for $180 per corner from Bob jane Artarmon.

    The eibach springs did not noticeably lower the front (visually) but the rear beam adjustment drops the back right down. On a flat surface the car actually has a slight lean to the back. When I fit the Koni's I am considering putting the torsion bar back up one notch to give a bit more travel in the rear. The Eibach's seem to reduce body roll at the front, which makes it feel a bit secure in the twisties.

    I will keep you posted once the koni's are in.

    BTW. where are you in syd?

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! mmm...CORNERS's Avatar
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    Jeeepers......Just read that doc you posted......9 grand for some lowering bits and an exhaust??, althought the headlights are cool. I wonder if Peugeot have any of these parts lying around.
    I dont feel so bad for spending what i did lowering my car. Including the new dampers it's well less than $1500!

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Excellent post, thanks. I never found any hesitation on turn in my gti6 but when I first got the car it had excessive toe-in set and it just plain understeered on turn in. Running 2mm toe out now and it's superb. I found the same thing re your comment about chassis/tyres. The original pirelli p6000's were crap and I've since put better tyres which do justice to the chassis.

    On that document you attached, the bit about the eibach kit being belchamps tested sounds great. But with the standard handling and ride being so good, the only way I'd even consider ANY suspension changes is after I drive one with that kit already on and am happy with it. I did some mucking around recently testing different mufflers on the dyno, and the oem muffler put out the same power as a straight through muffler, and significantly higher than a good reverse flow type.

    Could you please post your dyno graphs? Would be great to check those out.

    btw: How are you doing a 'remap'?
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  13. #13
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    I am in the parramatta-ish area.

    I have attached the 406 ST dyno run.

    The easiest way according to my dyno guys, who did my twin cam corolla (semi computer controlled) and my lpg/petrol 505 and work on everything else imaginable, is by flash eprom. Its working with the factory computer back and forth to the dyno trying different timing and fuel air settings. its not as sexy as a complete new Haltech or similar but its also cheeper and works with all the factory harware to very similar effect. A bit like powerchip but customised.

    I will post the 306 before and after when I have them.

    The 306 gti6 manifold will be modified before its fitted. I don't beleive the 4 into 1 manifold actually works as an extractor. All opinions from people in the motorsport community are that they will flow well but will not suck in the rev range a road car will use (10,000 rpm). They are way too short. They will however make good primary pipes for a 4-2-1 system. Bear in mind that my engine is not the 2.0 but the 1.8. Note that the new Clio has changed from 4-1 to 4-2-1, I beleive they have gone after more torque.

    I have toyed with head work etc. but wouldn't do this without thorough revision head, cams and quad throttles. The non gti 6 manifold and throttle body on the xu7 and xu10 although ultimately limiting, is more clever than we credit in providing flat torque curve (see graph), through high port velocity and inertia fill.

    Nobody I can find knows the cam timing and specs for these engines and to what extent this will limit extractor performance, I simply don't know. But if the exhaust timing is poor the lesser the effect.

    In the U.K. you can buy twin engine pipe replacemnts for the Gti 6 to provide
    the 4-2-1 effect and this was also offered by esscargo as the main benefit to be gained from exhaust tuning. In other words your dyno experiments with mufflers are not that surprising but the 4-2-1 has been shown to work. I hope it works on the xu7 as well.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Robinson Crusoe-resize-406-dyno-1.jpg  

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    Fellow Frogger! mmm...CORNERS's Avatar
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    If you talking about Esscargo AKA Northshore rallysport in Artarmon.....then they no longer exist. They were the ones who lowered my car. They also told me that the GTi6 headers fit straight onto the 1.8 16v motor, and with a new exhaust from gti headers back will give a marked improvement. But, they didnt have any hard data and It was an expensive system.

    Good work with actually trying these mods and testing actual effect with dyno's. It will be interesting to see the 306's results when you fiddle with it as I always felt the 1.8 motor has potential, given the right funding and the fact the car weight's 200Kg less than a GTi6. It feels like it needs the rev limiter moved up another 800-1000 Rpm....that would be fun.

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    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Thanks for the chart. The torque curve is flat, but when comparing torque curves it's pretty important that the scale remains the same. Your graph shows torque scale increments in 1000N blocks, whereas when I had mine dyno'd the torque scale was in 600N blocks. The torque spread between start and max torque for the 406 is approx. 400N on a median of 2000N. The torque spread I got was also approx. 400N but on a median of 3000N i.e a relatively smaller torque variation.

    The gti6 headers are actually a 4-2-1. The 4 very long primaries dump into a large diameter collector pipe before meeting the main exhaust pipe. This pic shows just the start of the collector pipe.

    One of the guys here, tekkie had the esscargo system on his gti6. The system retained the same curved headers you see in that pic, but used a slightly larger diameter collector and larger exhaust pipe all the way through. He said he noticed a slight drop in power below 3000 rpm but a slight increase in top end and revved out better in the upper reaches.

    If modifying the gti6 headers for your car, my GUESS would be to a longer collector. It's hard to say though by how much because from my understanding, the correct tuned length is important to get the pressure waves timed properly to maximise scavenging effect. I used to own a factory raced corolla (4age) and when I bought it, the guys who developed the exhaust said they retained the standard manifold and put on a longer secondary/collector and in conjunction with dyno runs, they kept cutting the collector 5mm at a time until the power in the rev range they wanted, peaked (and used the previous known length as power started falling).
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    Member 406bliss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U Turn
    Thanks for the chart. The torque curve is flat, but when comparing torque curves it's pretty important that the scale remains the same. Your graph shows torque scale increments in 1000N blocks, whereas when I had mine dyno'd the torque scale was in 600N blocks. The torque spread between start and max torque for the 406 is approx. 400N on a median of 2000N. The torque spread I got was also approx. 400N but on a median of 3000N i.e a relatively smaller torque variation.

    The gti6 headers are actually a 4-2-1. The 4 very long primaries dump into a large diameter collector pipe before meeting the main exhaust pipe. This pic shows just the start of the collector pipe.

    One of the guys here, tekkie had the esscargo system on his gti6. The system retained the same curved headers you see in that pic, but used a slightly larger diameter collector and larger exhaust pipe all the way through. He said he noticed a slight drop in power below 3000 rpm but a slight increase in top end and revved out better in the upper reaches.

    If modifying the gti6 headers for your car, my GUESS would be to a longer collector. It's hard to say though by how much because from my understanding, the correct tuned length is important to get the pressure waves timed properly to maximise scavenging effect. I used to own a factory raced corolla (4age) and when I bought it, the guys who developed the exhaust said they retained the standard manifold and put on a longer secondary/collector and in conjunction with dyno runs, they kept cutting the collector 5mm at a time until the power in the rev range they wanted, peaked (and used the previous known length as power started falling).
    Well, the 4-1 gti6 manifold (as pictured) as same as I have is a 4into1 collector, so I don't understand you because the engine pipe runs directly from this point. Thus 4-1. The esscargo boys offered cat back or new engine pipe inclusive systems. The new engine pipe was a twin tube(secondaries) which had a divider plate forcred into the 4-1 collector to split gas flow into the secondaries, simulating a 4-2-1. Have you ever seen in the end of the collector ? it is definately a 4-1. If your freinds car didn't have secondary pipes then he won't get any benefit.

    Yes the factory 4age system was ok, but the work done by longer secondaries, croyden, bd4's, genie etc. hepled torque.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    the GTi-6 pipe is single all the way through

    as far as i can see there isn't any twin pipes going into one on the secondaries

    i'll check the parts manuals later to make sure
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 406bliss
    Have you ever seen in the end of the collector ? it is definately a 4-1. If your freinds car didn't have secondary pipes then he won't get any benefit.
    Oops sorry mate, no I've never looked inside the collector pipe. I've always assumed it had a split piece in it like ones I've seen in other car's collectors. Would peugeot really get it wrong though? For a 2 Lt NA engine, it seems quite torquey from standard. I'd definitely like to see a dyno graph showing power/torque improvements by changing the collector.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    I'm working with annecdotal evidence, as to whether changing it helps.
    Although the renault clio is quite suggestive.

    As my cars have just a casting, i'm guessing I will get some benefit. As 4-2-1 is a more broad brush approach, I will go this way. My 306 engine at 1.8 is different enough to unsettle any finely tuned 4-1 scenario.

    Perhaps the 4-1 header has its origins in peuget sport (racing) and the jigs etc were already there. It probably flows well even if it doesn't suck.

    The dyno will be the final jury. Its a risk, I admit. But like all good risks there is the possible reward of up to 25% increase after tuning, if you beleive some pundits.

    This would yeild same power to weight as the 306 gti6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 406bliss
    I'm working with annecdotal evidence, as to whether changing it helps.
    Although the renault clio is quite suggestive.

    As my cars have just a casting, i'm guessing I will get some benefit. As 4-2-1 is a more broad brush approach, I will go this way. My 306 engine at 1.8 is different enough to unsettle any finely tuned 4-1 scenario.

    Perhaps the 4-1 header has its origins in peuget sport (racing) and the jigs etc were already there. It probably flows well even if it doesn't suck.

    The dyno will be the final jury. Its a risk, I admit. But like all good risks there is the possible reward of up to 25% increase after tuning, if you beleive some pundits.

    This would yeild same power to weight as the 306 gti6.

    My S16 peugeot sport catalog (from 1997) doesn't have any headers, has a magnex twin tube downpipe, and also a monotube one. both without cat. Only itmes listed are intermediate pipe, rear silencer, and twin and mono downpipes. approx 300 pounds (1997) for the lot

    Tony.

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