Chokey s16 idle on start up after short drive...
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  1. #1
    Member Go306's Avatar
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    Default Chokey s16 idle on start up after short drive...

    Hi all, im new to this site. But anyway my query is concerning my 306 s16. After ive taken it for a short 20min drive, and then parked it somewhere for aprox. 1 hour then returned to start it up, the idle is quite chokey and it sounds like its running on less then 4 cylinders. But all it takes is a quick (less then 10 seconds) drive down the street and when i stop again and listen the idle is fine? Any thoughts? PS: Ive just replaced a couple of coils and the spark plugs in hope that it would fix the problem ($$), doesnt seem to have =(
    Your help would be greatly appreciated =)

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Perhaps the temperature sensor that controls the cold start enrichener is on the blink?

    Or is the water level low in the radiator, perhaps, so that it's not getting a true reading on standing for a time?

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    Yeah thats another thing i wanted to ask about. I dont have the manual, where do i fill the radiator fluid to?, theres no overflow bottle and no hot/cold indicators?

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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    As for the lumpy idle, my S16 does that in particular when the air filter is dirty or I bought crap fuel. It could also be a number of other problems, including the lamda (spel?) sensor too. But S16's are very mechanicaly reliable and I don't think its anything major.
    The Radiator fills, when relatively cool, to full about 3/4" below the top of the cap on the drivers side of the radiator. S16's have the end tanks marked but they are hard to see. Make sure you use a quality coolant with the right mixed ratio. Its best to mix your self than buy pre-mixed. - Chris
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    Member Go306's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice. One other thing, after i start the car, the oil pressure idicator is steady occasionaly it will jump around and flick back and forth and then return to its usual position? On my last service i used mobil1 5w-... Any suggestions?

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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    This needle on start up was supposed to tell you how much oil was in the sump. It was supposed to indicate the level, i say WAS as in 90% of S16's ive seen its not connected, good feature wasted! from the factory.. after that it could be your oil just getting up to temp, as pressure will vary as its thickness/consistancy changes with temp change. Nothing to be too concerned, but 5w is a little to thin in that scale. Unless your car has less than 80000K's id use a quality 10-40 or 15-50. Do a search for oil types as we have covered that as much as recommended tyres. - Chris
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    Member Go306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRI'S16
    but 5w is a little to thin in that scale. Unless your car has less than 80000K's id use a quality 10-40 or 15-50. Do a search for oil types as we have covered that as much as recommended tyres. - Chris
    Bloody Asquith and Johnstone!

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go306
    Thanks for the advice. One other thing, after i start the car, the oil pressure idicator is steady occasionaly it will jump around and flick back and forth and then return to its usual position? On my last service i used mobil1 5w-... Any suggestions?
    I think you have an electrical fault with your oil pressure gauge, mine has been playing up since just after it was out of warranty. Mine does show the oil level correctly when I turn on the ignition, but rarely shows the correct oil pressure whilst driving. it usually flicks around from no pressure to normal pressure very erratically. A sharp hit on the dash board will usually make it behave for about 30 seconds, then it will start jumping around all over the place again. probably a loose connection somewhere.

    Tony.

    PS I have been noticing the same rough idle problem recently too, pretty much exactly what you described. I'm going to put the factory air box back in soon, will be interesting to see if that makes any difference.

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    Member Go306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute
    PS I have been noticing the same rough idle problem recently too, pretty much exactly what you described. I'm going to put the factory air box back in soon, will be interesting to see if that makes any difference.
    Yeah, the idle seems to be getting worse. Now it even plays up right from start up, on a cold engine. It'd be idling smoothly, then momentarily it will sound like the engine cuts out, just for a split second and idle normally again, it idles in this rough fashion all the time now. Its not smooth at all. Its bloody annoying, because i try to take good care of it.

    PS: the problem happened after an afternoon of 'sprited driving' on the M5 and then i took the long way home
    PPS: Whats the point in having an s16 if u dont give the diaphrams a good run for ther money every now and then?
    PPPS: It's borderline embaressing starting the car, especially in the gym carpark, it sounds ridiculous for an s16, sounds more like an old rx7.
    Im taking it in for a service on Monday (to A&J again -mainly for the recall notice [btw anyone else get that]?) but ill be asking them to check that too. Ill get back to you
    -Brian

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go306
    Yeah, the idle seems to be getting worse. Now it even plays up right from start up, on a cold engine. It'd be idling smoothly, then momentarily it will sound like the engine cuts out, just for a split second and idle normally again, it idles in this rough fashion all the time now. Its not smooth at all. Its bloody annoying, because i try to take good care of it.

    PS: the problem happened after an afternoon of 'sprited driving' on the M5 and then i took the long way home
    PPS: Whats the point in having an s16 if u dont give the diaphrams a good run for ther money every now and then?
    PPPS: It's borderline embaressing starting the car, especially in the gym carpark, it sounds ridiculous for an s16, sounds more like an old rx7.
    Im taking it in for a service on Monday (to A&J again -mainly for the recall notice [btw anyone else get that]?) but ill be asking them to check that too. Ill get back to you
    -Brian
    I didn't go back to A&J after they told me that 5 liters of mobil 1 was going to cost me $150 and that once I had used it once I could never anything else or it would ruin my motor. I can't stand that sort of thing..... yeah I got the recall, and booked it into Alec Mildren but they said they can't do it till the 8th May..... looks like I only half fill the car for the next month, last night it actually had the seepage problem!!

    does it sound like it's running rich (ie the choke is on to much) sort of blub blub blub blub blub ...... I don't know how the choke works on an S16 haven't investigated, but thats what it sounds like on mine (from experience with an old manual choke on my morris, that sounded exactly the same when pulled on to hard) it's actually scary the number of similarities between my morrie and S16 .

    Is your car hunting too? mine will do it in 2nd or 3rd gear between about 2000 and 3000 rpm when it's not under much load, it is only ocasional..... but anoying when it does it (usually when crawling along in traffic).

    Tony.

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    Member Go306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute
    I didn't go back to A&J after they told me that 5 liters of mobil 1 was going to cost me $150 and that once I had used it once I could never anything else or it would ruin my motor. I can't stand that sort of thing..... yeah I got the recall, and booked it into Alec Mildren but they said they can't do it till the 8th May..... looks like I only half fill the car for the next month, last night it actually had the seepage problem!!

    does it sound like it's running rich (ie the choke is on to much) sort of blub blub blub blub blub ...... I don't know how the choke works on an S16 haven't investigated, but thats what it sounds like on mine (from experience with an old manual choke on my morris, that sounded exactly the same when pulled on to hard) it's actually scary the number of similarities between my morrie and S16 .

    Is your car hunting too? mine will do it in 2nd or 3rd gear between about 2000 and 3000 rpm when it's not under much load, it is only ocasional..... but anoying when it does it (usually when crawling along in traffic).

    Tony.
    Man, my s16 is like a rubix cube with all the colours jumbled up and then some kid takes the stickers off and switches them around. I cant figure out wtf's going on with it.
    I suspect it might be running rich, its using quite alotta petrol for a 4cyl, even for a 2ltr.
    Theres basically 2 rough idle sounds/times:
    -1 When i start her up when the engines warm after a drive and she's had around 1 hour to rest. Its this really sorta low rev, almost about to die-out sorta soft rotary idle. Like a candle in a gust of wind, barely staying lit.
    -2 And then theres the idle when i start her on cold, its just like the usual idle sound, but it sounds as though the engine is just randomly cutting out for a split second and back on again.

    Im taking mine to Alec Mildren nextime, where is he? Attarmon or something yeh? Whats the addy?
    PS: Whats 'hunting'?

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go306
    Man, my s16 is like a rubix cube with all the colours jumbled up and then some kid takes the stickers off and switches them around. I cant figure out wtf's going on with it.
    I suspect it might be running rich, its using quite alotta petrol for a 4cyl, even for a 2ltr.
    Theres basically 2 rough idle sounds/times:
    -1 When i start her up when the engines warm after a drive and she's had around 1 hour to rest. Its this really sorta low rev, almost about to die-out sorta soft rotary idle. Like a candle in a gust of wind, barely staying lit.
    -2 And then theres the idle when i start her on cold, its just like the usual idle sound, but it sounds as though the engine is just randomly cutting out for a split second and back on again.

    Im taking mine to Alec Mildren nextime, where is he? Attarmon or something yeh? Whats the addy?
    PS: Whats 'hunting'?
    sounds like you have a different idle problem to me, but it's hard to describe so maybe not mine is pretty infrequent though, only notice it occasionally.

    Yeah Alec Mildren is in Artarmon. I haven't been there but they had my car on record, so I think it must have taken over from New Rowley when they became a VW only dealer. Service center is 22 Cleg St Artarmon, phone 9906 1388. I got a complete list of Pug dealers in Sydney with my recall notice if you want the others yell out Artarmon was just handy for me!

    hunting is where when you are sitting on a constant speed (and not moving the accelerator pedal) the car sort of jerks back and forth like you are changing the throttle setting on and off a little bit. It's a bit like an oscilation like it would behave if you were to tap your foot on and off the accelerator while driving along.

    what sort of fuel economy are you getting? I get about 450K's out of a tank city driving (and I don't often do less than 5K gear changes, and often redline it at least in first). That is using either caltex vortex (not the new 98) or optimax (though optimax seems to vary greatly in quality). with BP ultimate 98 the economy seems to be worse (maybe 430K's on a tank). Synergy 8000 is probably more consitant than optimax, but more expensive than the caltex which seems to be remarkably good considering it's lower octane rating (my car seems to run better on the vortex than optimax).

    do you allways buy your fuel at the same place? if so I'd try filling up somewhere else and with a different brand of fuel. You may be getting dirty fuel????

    One other thing to look at would be the oxygen sensor. I had a wire break off mine, and it started misbehaving when the manifold transitioned from long to short. missed like crazy for a split second, at around 5000RPM. After replacing it my economy went from about 420K /tank to 450K+ per tank city driving.

    If A&J is convenient to you and you don't mind going to a non pug dealer, you could try colliers on James Ruse drive Granville. I got them to put a new throttle cable in for me, and fix a leak in my exhaust. They seem pretty decent and genuine, service was really good. ( I used to go to North shore rally sport but they have closed down).

    North shore rally sport recommended SAS (Silverwater Automotive Services) when I mentioned my car was hunting, they can reprogram the ECU to stop it apparently, however I suspect there must be a root cause, so I think it would be better to treat the cause rather than the symptoms.

    Hmmmm one other thing you could check would be the wire that attaches to the solenoid for the manifold vacuum pots, if it is loose or making intermittent contact it could cause some weirdness. if you pull it off while the car is running the engine almost dies and then recovers, bit like what you are describing. I can't remember where it is exactly, I think on the passenger side stuck on the side of the head. I moved mine when I replaced it (the original had a heat related fault).

    the only other thing I can think of is a leak in a vacuum hose, or in the hose to the map sensor in the ecu (or the little plastic doover, peugeot call it a filter in line in the map sensor hose).

    Tony.

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    Member senthil16V's Avatar
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    check and see if the K-light or the check engine light comes on when the car is started from cold...if it does come on, then you may have a bad connection or even sensor failures...mine had a similar problem like yours and was diagnosed as the air intake temperature sensor and camshaft position sensor failure...

    sometimes it could be dodgy connections to the sensors which have accummulated dust and dirt over the years...try cleaning them out using a quality contact cleaner and monitor whether the problem is resolved...

    With Rgds,

    Senthil16V

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    Member Go306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute
    sounds like you have a different idle problem to me, but it's hard to describe so maybe not mine is pretty infrequent though, only notice it occasionally.

    Yeah Alec Mildren is in Artarmon. I haven't been there but they had my car on record, so I think it must have taken over from New Rowley when they became a VW only dealer. Service center is 22 Cleg St Artarmon, phone 9906 1388. I got a complete list of Pug dealers in Sydney with my recall notice if you want the others yell out Artarmon was just handy for me!

    hunting is where when you are sitting on a constant speed (and not moving the accelerator pedal) the car sort of jerks back and forth like you are changing the throttle setting on and off a little bit. It's a bit like an oscilation like it would behave if you were to tap your foot on and off the accelerator while driving along.

    what sort of fuel economy are you getting? I get about 450K's out of a tank city driving (and I don't often do less than 5K gear changes, and often redline it at least in first). That is using either caltex vortex (not the new 98) or optimax (though optimax seems to vary greatly in quality). with BP ultimate 98 the economy seems to be worse (maybe 430K's on a tank). Synergy 8000 is probably more consitant than optimax, but more expensive than the caltex which seems to be remarkably good considering it's lower octane rating (my car seems to run better on the vortex than optimax).

    do you allways buy your fuel at the same place? if so I'd try filling up somewhere else and with a different brand of fuel. You may be getting dirty fuel????

    One other thing to look at would be the oxygen sensor. I had a wire break off mine, and it started misbehaving when the manifold transitioned from long to short. missed like crazy for a split second, at around 5000RPM. After replacing it my economy went from about 420K /tank to 450K+ per tank city driving.

    If A&J is convenient to you and you don't mind going to a non pug dealer, you could try colliers on James Ruse drive Granville. I got them to put a new throttle cable in for me, and fix a leak in my exhaust. They seem pretty decent and genuine, service was really good. ( I used to go to North shore rally sport but they have closed down).

    North shore rally sport recommended SAS (Silverwater Automotive Services) when I mentioned my car was hunting, they can reprogram the ECU to stop it apparently, however I suspect there must be a root cause, so I think it would be better to treat the cause rather than the symptoms.

    Hmmmm one other thing you could check would be the wire that attaches to the solenoid for the manifold vacuum pots, if it is loose or making intermittent contact it could cause some weirdness. if you pull it off while the car is running the engine almost dies and then recovers, bit like what you are describing. I can't remember where it is exactly, I think on the passenger side stuck on the side of the head. I moved mine when I replaced it (the original had a heat related fault).

    the only other thing I can think of is a leak in a vacuum hose, or in the hose to the map sensor in the ecu (or the little plastic doover, peugeot call it a filter in line in the map sensor hose).

    Tony.
    Yeh i might take it to Alec Mildren next time. A & J replaced a couple of coils and also re-attached some cables in the harness that they thought might be causing it, but i dont think it really made any significant difference. Like yours, mine too is pretty random, so when i picked it up from A&J there was no problem, but it soon returned.
    Yeh nah, my car doesn't hunt like that, sounds like something that'd only happen to an s16 tho, an annoying sorta problem like that, typical
    I usually use, optimax, mainly coz they're the only place i can get to easily with 98octane. The only other one i use is BP Ultimate, i can't notice much difference between the 2. Ultimate seems to get used up a lil faster, but its circumstantial.
    Ill check the things you guys suggested; or since im going for the recall tommorow, ill ask them to check up some of those things too.
    What do you think of the computer-based way of diagnosing mechanical problems ie. Hook her up to the computer and just wait for the errors to appear?
    Or do u think something more old school and methodical is most effective? Coz i know all A&J really do is use that computer, which never really seems to find anything?
    -Brian

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    Member Go306's Avatar
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    Btw, yeh, the light on the wheel (that lil red light) and the light on the dash (the one with the engine sillouette [spell?]) on it usualy comes on for a few seconds then disappears, as i recall i think it was A&J or another mechanic that said it was nothing? What does it mean?

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go306
    Btw, yeh, the light on the wheel (that lil red light) and the light on the dash (the one with the engine sillouette [spell?]) on it usualy comes on for a few seconds then disappears, as i recall i think it was A&J or another mechanic that said it was nothing? What does it mean?
    as far as I know the one on the steering wheel is showing the airbag is ok, and the K light always comes on when you first start the car, mine has allways stayed on for about 5 seconds then goes out. You only need to worry if the K light comes on whilst you are driving. Has only done it to me twice, once when I got bad fuel, and once when my battery terminal was loose (which also blew the zenner in my Air cond ECU).

    I was thinking about the diagnostics, and got to thinking that someone like SAS who reprograms ECU's would have to be getting all sorts of data to do that, whether they could use that data to do some diags or not I don't know.

    It was brookvale peugeot that finally found the wiring fault in my car, the guys at Northshore Rally sport gave up and sent it up to them, I think it took them a couple of days to find.

    As far as the computer diagnosis is concerned, it will only show up things that are completely broken (I think). If you have a sensor that is half working, the computer may not realise it is getting false/bogus info, I suspect it will only detect when sensors are not working at all, or are so far off it can detect it. bit like when my oxygen sensor broke a wire, the car started playing up and the computer would have logged an error, but before the wire broke the sensor was still sort of working, howerver it wasn't working properly because putting in the new one gave me an extra 30K's per tank! (and I had been getting the lower figure for more than a year, and that lower figure was 40K's per tank better than before I changed the exhaust!!!!)

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Oh one other thing I thought of too. My Cousins husband decided to pressure clean the engine bay of their XT. started idling really badly afterwoulds. and would actually die completely. Something got water in it and needed to be replaced, but I don't know what it was.

    Tony.

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    Member Go306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute
    Oh one other thing I thought of too. My Cousins husband decided to pressure clean the engine bay of their XT. started idling really badly afterwoulds. and would actually die completely. Something got water in it and needed to be replaced, but I don't know what it was.
    Yeah that also happened to me, the spark plugs get some moisture on them or something like that, you have to get em cleaned. I dunno if that could be the problem with mine tho, coz ive already had the spark plugs changed?, could the moisture still be there?
    Ill see what the verdict is when i take it in on monday, i thought it was today. Thanks for the input tho
    -Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Go306
    Yeah that also happened to me, the spark plugs get some moisture on them or something like that, you have to get em cleaned. I dunno if that could be the problem with mine tho, coz ive already had the spark plugs changed?, could the moisture still be there?
    Ill see what the verdict is when i take it in on monday, i thought it was today. Thanks for the input tho
    -Brian
    Hey guys,
    Go306 I have been having exactly the same problems, (see recent posts) I have spent about $1500 so far, replaced, Oxygen sensor, all coil packs, spark plugs, had injectors cleaned, checked exhaust back pressue and all that. ill be very interested to know what happens with yours on monday as mine is going in to the mechanic on tuesday, and as I have already spent big $$$ with the mechanics trying to diagnose the problem any guidance would be great.

    Good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tims16
    Hey guys,
    Go306 I have been having exactly the same problems, (see recent posts) I have spent about $1500 so far, replaced, Oxygen sensor, all coil packs, spark plugs, had injectors cleaned, checked exhaust back pressue and all that. ill be very interested to know what happens with yours on monday as mine is going in to the mechanic on tuesday, and as I have already spent big $$$ with the mechanics trying to diagnose the problem any guidance would be great.

    Good luck!
    Well A&J couldnt even find a problem, in fact they couldnt even recognise a problem was there. Saying things like "mate we cant even hear anything she sounds fine" So I went to pick it up (my main reason for taking it there was to fix the recall, which they did), and the second i started the ignition i heard the idle problem straight away. They're unbelievable these guys, its such an obvious rotor-sounding idle note. Anyway to make things worse, somehow they managed to put my rear wheels back on in a way that they were touching the inner guards, and everytime i turned it made this odd rubbing/screaching sound. I only noticed it close to home (35min drive away) so i had to drive it all the way back the next day. They fixed it, so i drove home, next day problem returned!!! So i had to go ALL the way back; turns out the clips to pin back the gaurd fell off or something?? In the end they decided to blame it on me saying "mate ur tyres are too wide" (albeit true, they were never rubbing the inner gaurd previously!). Instead of 195/55/15's i have 205/50/15's. Well they pinned it back the best they could, most of the inner wall is worn away anyway. To summarize, the idle problem is still there, and i no longer have much of an inner wall for the rear wheels anymore.
    BUT
    I should point out the guy at reception is a champion, great guy, excellent customer service, plus i didnt have to pay anything (apart from my petrol to and from for the multiple trips)
    So yeh, problem still remains unsolved.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Don't know if you saw this thread that I posted before?? S16 cracked vacuum pipe. Oh what a difference!

    I haven't noticed any idle problems since I fixed it, and my Flat mate commented the first time I took him for a drive that the idle sounded different......

    not sure the best way of checking the pipe for a leak.... probably taking both ends off (very carefully) the one on the throttle body, and the one on the purge valve, block one end and suck on the other. If you get air through you probably have a crack in the pipe..... the other alternative would be to simply get a length of hose long enough to bypass the metal pipe completely and see if anything changes.

    The other thing that may be worth a shot (and I doubt would be that expensive) would be take it to someone (other than a pug dealer) and ask them to replace all of the vacuum hoses (something on my to do list)... they can simply cut to length, where as I imagine the pug dealer would have some hideously expensive pre cut pipes I'm pretty sure I have seen others recommending this in other threads for idle problems.

    If you normally take it to A&J you could try Colliers on James Ruse Drive Granville. I've had my throttle cable, and clutch cable replaced by them, and didn't have any problem.

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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