Deep brake pedal travel = Worn wheel bearings!
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Deep brake pedal travel = Worn wheel bearings!

    I've narrowed the problem to pad knockback causing the deep pedal travel on my 206gti.

    I checked both front bearings and noted only the LHS was worn. I changed the whole bearing with hub to avoid jacking out/in new bearing. The brake problem was still noticable only after cornering. I checked the car again tonite and noticed that BOTH front bearings are worn!!! The new LHS bearing is not even a month old!

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    I would like to ask is it possible for say a bad bearing in this case the RHS to wear out a new one on the LHS? I've searched the net for other possible causes being worn drive shafts or misaligned engines.

    There are so many options and factors which can effect or cause worn wheel bearings but whats the most likely in my case?

    Thanks

    J

  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Lack of lubrication?

    Did you use a new bearing or a used one?

  3. #3
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    J, if these are like the earlier Pug FWD hubs (that is, without tapered roller bearings) then the bearing can be ruined by putting the car's weight on the wheels without firstly tightening the driveshaft nut to the correct, relatively high, torque.

    That said, it wouldn't explain the failure of the first bearing. To me, it seems highly unusual for the bearings to fail so quickly, especially on such a light car.

    Cheers

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  4. #4
    Tadpole
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    Hey Ray & Stuey

    The bearing was brand new with the complete hub and arm (not too sure of the correct name but the shock sits into the arm). I brought the whole unit to avoid any problems with 2nd hand parts and its dead already. The driveshaft nut was tightened to the correct torque before the car's weight was applied to the new bearing.

    Whats wrong was the older RHS was fine but now its so bad I can feel the play by just moving the tire with the car on the ground! I think its some sort of worn bearing on the drive shafts or something giving out vibrations which in turn are killing the bearings. I had a friend who changed both sides and after only two weeks both showed free play.

    What are the chances of drive shafts getting bent or could the gearbox cause such vibrations that would wear out bearings? This problem is really doing my head in and if it cant be sold the car is a goner.

    Attached pictures the circled hub n bearings which was renewed as a whole unit with the bearing preinstalled. The other picture shows the drive shaft for the 206gti. All my engine mounts have been renewed incase there are any problems with a misaligned shaft which I doubt as both have two flexible joints.

    HELP

    J
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Deep brake pedal travel = Worn wheel bearings!-shaft.gif   Deep brake pedal travel = Worn wheel bearings!-hub.gif  

  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I wonder if there's something wrong in the assembly... that is, if you've left out a washer or spacer or something?

    This might result in the nut bottoming out and not tightening the bearings as they should be.

  6. #6
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    JC,
    the diagrams make it look like the components in questin are much like those in any other FWD pug over the last 15 years ( except perhaps for the 407 which seems to have quite a different arrangemnt)

    That being so I have replace bearings in both 205 and 405Mi and in both cases the mot noticable problem was noise on cornering... One bearing on the 405 had actually leaked water and had brown rusty grease in it.. 205 had done 200000km AND 405 160000 KM. Any decent workshop with a press and someone who knows how to use it should be able to replace the bearings easily once the hub carrier is out of the car. The oly issue I had with one was an outer bearing race siezed onto hte hub which took a bit of heat and cold chiselling to coax it off.

    As for gearbox or driveshaft issues "causing" bearing failure I would guess that for these kinds of issues to affect these large bearings the car would be undrivable with noises and vibrations. It is hard to imagine how you could bend a drive shaft given their size and position above the main suspension components. Even then the loads on a 205GTi would have to be much lower than on the 405 Mi for example which has more power and is heavier so normal riad use of a properly fitted bearing is an unlikely cause. Ray could be right..

    Not much specific advise here except to have someone who knows have a good look at the problem and perhaps replace both bearings again, properly! Expensive though at around $100 per bearing.

    Good luck
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  7. #7
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    Out of interest, how far has the car travelled since new?

    I don't think vibration from the transmission will kill the wheel bearings; they're designed to take all of the road shocks while supporting the full weight of the car, so a few vibes through the shafts shouldn't bother them. The intermidiate bearing can be checked (RHS) by grabbing the shaft and violently tugging it in all directions, looking for movement.

    It's a tough one. I wonder if the rubber bushes in the lower arm (marked 5 and 6 in the pic) could be very badly worn and giving play that feels like bearings? How hard do you corner?

    Unlikely, but are the hub castings defintely clamped tight to the strut bottoms, and located properly with the raised bit on the strut?

    Still seems strange for such a late model - ie. a young-ish car.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Hi guys

    Thanks for all the replies to my problem n questions.

    The car is a 2000 206Gti which has now covered 155,000kms. The problem only appeared on my mates car which covered a similar distance and another is showing the same problems. It always appears as deep pedal travel then bearings then god knows what.

    The LHS bearing was changed with a complete unit so no jacking was required. All nuts were tightened with no visible signs of damage or free play on the RHS bearing. I will have the drive shaft checked as Stuey stated by tugging and shaking violently.

    I corner as hard as I can running on A048 racing tires. These are my third set and I had no problems with the last two whatsoever. I dont think with the low bhp output of this car that any type of hard cornering would wear out wheel bearings. As for the high torque required the old RHS was never touched before and when checked had no free play. however, checking both sides by just holding the tire and shaking one could feel free play. Its strange that the RHS was okay before and its now worn with the NEW side too!

    The car drives with the steering wheel slightly off to the LHS as it was straight before (steering rack n pin?). The car also vibrates at speeds over 100kms which did not happen before. When I do corner now I can feel the bearings effecting the handling of the car which is getting dangerous to drive. Lastly, with the engine off and no steering lock applied I move the steering wheel turn left n right quickly to hear a little "clicking" noise. This noise appears when the steering is turned to which ever side say left or right. Feels to me like there is some free play in the rack n pin...possible to cause worn bearings? The hub castings are defintely clamped tight to the shock strut bottoms as they indent them slightly. The top strut rubber mounts were renewed not too long ago as with all the strut/brake bolts, engine mounts and everything I can think of. The car is so well maintained its like new apart from this stupid annoying problem.


    This problem is really confusing me n I wont change the bearings until I find the cause of the problem. A mate changed both bearings only to find both worn with free play after 2 weeks! He crashed the car so his problems are now gone but mine remain.

    Whatever is causing the wheel bearings to wear is quite serious to kill them in a few weeks time. These bearings look like they can withstand superman punches!

    Thanks

    J
    Last edited by jc_333; 27th March 2005 at 12:33 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jc_333
    Hi guys

    Thanks for all the replies to my problem n questions.

    I corner as hard as I can running on A048 racing tires. These are my third set and I had no problems with the last two whatsoever. I dont think with the low bhp output of this car that any type of hard cornering would wear out wheel bearings. As for the high torque required the old RHS was never touched before and when checked had no free play. however, checking both sides by just holding the tire and shaking one could feel free play. Its strange that the RHS was okay before and its now worn with the NEW side too!
    jc, I'm pretty sure it's not the intermediate bearing - I was just pointing you towards how to check it on the car, as you asked.

    The reason I mentioned how hard you corner was because of the lower arm rubber mounts (the 'wishbone') as I mentioned before, #5 & #6 in the pic you posted. If these are worn, it could give the symptoms you have. I wasn't suggesting that this affects the bearing.

    Good luck,

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  10. #10
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    Hmm. Just had a thought. What I said above wouldn't push the pads away from the disc, like movement of the wheel hub relative to the bearing carrier due to knackered bearings would.

    I'm stumped!
    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  11. #11
    Tadpole
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    Hi Stuey

    OIC...so your saying it might not be the bearings but the wishbone on the car? Both front wishbones are uprated group N parts from Peugeot sport and have been on the car for maybe a year now. Stronger ball joints to withstand harder cornering and abuse.

    I will get the car checked out on Monday at a mates workshop and will post updates.

    Thanks

    J

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    jc, I'm pretty sure it's not the intermediate bearing - I was just pointing you towards how to check it on the car, as you asked.

    The reason I mentioned how hard you corner was because of the lower arm rubber mounts (the 'wishbone') as I mentioned before, #5 & #6 in the pic you posted. If these are worn, it could give the symptoms you have. I wasn't suggesting that this affects the bearing.

    Good luck,

    Stuey

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Frankly, I think it's time to go to a dealership and ask for them to inspect it all...

    The common element here seems to be you blokes doing the work yourselves, and though this doesn't explain the RHS bearing going, that could be the result of some improper assembly on the left.

    I don't see anything else affecting the bearings... not the rack and pinion, not wheel balance, not driveshafts.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jc_333
    Hi Stuey

    OIC...so your saying it might not be the bearings but the wishbone on the car? Both front wishbones are uprated group N parts from Peugeot sport and have been on the car for maybe a year now. Stronger ball joints to withstand harder cornering and abuse.

    I will get the car checked out on Monday at a mates workshop and will post updates.

    Thanks

    J
    I was suggesting that the movement you feel when pulling on the road wheel with your hands could be the inner mounting bushes on the wishbone - however, as mentioned above, this wouldn't knock the pads away from the disc...

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  14. #14
    Tadpole
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    Hi Guys

    I was just thinking the same thing that the wishbone wouldnt knock back the pads. I dont think its my workshop as there are three 206Gti which have travelled around 100,000kms n problem appears. Its a worn part of some sort but which one to cause worn bearings.

    Gonna check out the bushes n such tmr at a mates workshop. The Pug dealers here in HK are crap.

    Updates later.

    J

  15. #15
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    just a thought from the left wing

    what are the seals like in the master cylinder ?

    this won't account for the bearings bieng chewed out but if you need to pump the pedal the master may be worth checking
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Brakes and worn bearings?

    JC,
    You mentioned replacing the front wheel bearing and its carrier/upright as a complete unit?
    Could the bearing fitted be one of the later, tapered roller type as Stuey mentioned? If so tightening this to the specifications of the earlier type would result in a bearing failure in quick time.

    This doesn't explain the looseness or wear on the other side hub.

  17. #17
    Tadpole
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    Hi

    The master cylinder has been changed with new brake fluid.

    Car was checked again at my mates workshop and he says it aint the wheel bearings. There is only horizontal movement from the wheel when checked by shaking it side to side. If it was the wheel bearings there would be movement in both directions e.g. no vertical too. He comments that the joints on the steering are worn thus only free play in a horizontal movement. Part #3 on the attached diagram but not too sure if its the rod itself or the main unit thread. Gonna get these parts changed later and will update again. I doubt very much that this would cause the deep pedal travel so thats another problem on the car yet to fix! It seems to be one problem after another with his car!

    The new bearings are of the same type as the old. Out of interest would could the correct torque be for such bearings?

    Thanks

    J

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    just a thought from the left wing

    what are the seals like in the master cylinder ?

    this won't account for the bearings bieng chewed out but if you need to pump the pedal the master may be worth checking

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