505 Turbo problems
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default 505 Turbo problems

    A question for anyone with turbo charger experience. The manifold on my ZDJL (a custom job with 1.75in runners) which has been in use for about 5 months has developed several cracks around the weld where the flange meets the exhaust turbine housing. It also quite literally blew a hole in the same area leaving a gap about the size of a 5c piece. The hole was subsequently welded, and I noticed the cracks appearing about two weeks after the hole was repaired.
    The only thing I can think of which may be causing this is excess torsional movement of the motor itself. The exhaust system seems to be fixed to the car rather than hung which affords little in the way of flexibilty which would mean that the manifold is acting like an additional engine mount, and eventually something has to give. Or; a simple problem of temperature fluctuation causing rapid expansion and contraction of the manifold.
    I know that welding makes the metal brittle and prone to failure but it seems odd that these problems would manifest themselves all within the same short period of about 2 weeks. Can any of my fellow frogs offer any advice as to whether I should try different runners with thicker walled steel or should I investigate the possibilty of a more liberally fitted exhaust and try to brace the motor to avoid any flex?

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    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    A question for anyone with turbo charger experience. The manifold on my ZDJL (a custom job with 1.75in runners) which has been in use for about 5 months has developed several cracks around the weld where the flange meets the exhaust turbine housing. It also quite literally blew a hole in the same area leaving a gap about the size of a 5c piece. The hole was subsequently welded, and I noticed the cracks appearing about two weeks after the hole was repaired.
    The only thing I can think of which may be causing this is excess torsional movement of the motor itself. The exhaust system seems to be fixed to the car rather than hung which affords little in the way of flexibilty which would mean that the manifold is acting like an additional engine mount, and eventually something has to give. Or; a simple problem of temperature fluctuation causing rapid expansion and contraction of the manifold.
    I know that welding makes the metal brittle and prone to failure but it seems odd that these problems would manifest themselves all within the same short period of about 2 weeks. Can any of my fellow frogs offer any advice as to whether I should try different runners with thicker walled steel or should I investigate the possibilty of a more liberally fitted exhaust and try to brace the motor to avoid any flex?
    what is the manifold made of and who welded it?

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Default ZDJL = Renault 21 engine?

    505 to the max....... I am almost 100 % certain that the block used in the Pug 505 in that configuration is the same as what Renault used in the R21, and hence in the 21 Turbos. Try a search for the 21 trubo club in the UK and see what you can find there. I doubt the block is flexing under loads, as some fo the cars over there are running big boost.


    From what you describe, your manifold is custom made from tube, yes?
    It is amazing it has cracked, may-be the tube used wasn't designed for exhaust gas temeratures, or possibly the bends are too great and have exceeded the torsional strength of the metal.(**edit.meaning the metal has cracked because the metal wasn't strong enough to bend that tight**)
    Last edited by HONG KONG PUGGY; 26th March 2005 at 10:16 PM.
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  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The exhaust system should be anchored solidly to the gearbox before the flexing is allowed to take place...

    On these cars, it's normal for the first flexible mount to be further back on the link tube, ahead of the diff, and then the mounts behind that are to the body. So the whole mass of engine, gearbox, link tube and diff move as one, with the exhaust not moving until it's past that solid mount on the gearbox.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    The runners on the manifold are, as mentioned in the initial post 1.75in. They're just mandrel bent sections welded together with the sharpest angle bend being about 50 degrees just before the four runners meet the collector and subsequently the flange going to the exhaust turbine housing. I'm assuming that they're just tubular mild steel, however I haven't confirmed that with the person who manufactured it.
    The Renault manifold would (theoretically if I could actually get my hands on one) be an easy fix, however it would most likely be a cast manifold rather than a genuine 4 tubes into 1 setup. It would cost the motor dearly in terms of torque and throttle response (minimal lag), and torque is the reason for my car's modifications. It would also be designed for a larger turbo than my 505 is currently using (a Garrett T25 from a CA18DET Nissan) which would mean more work to fit it.
    Can I assume from your reply Ray, that you are ruling out the possibilty of the exhaust system either causing, or contributing to this problem?

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    The runners on the manifold are, as mentioned in the initial post 1.75in. They're just mandrel bent sections welded together with the sharpest angle bend being about 50 degrees just before the four runners meet the collector and subsequently the flange going to the exhaust turbine housing. I'm assuming that they're just tubular mild steel, however I haven't confirmed that with the person who manufactured it.
    The Renault manifold would (theoretically if I could actually get my hands on one) be an easy fix, however it would most likely be a cast manifold rather than a genuine 4 tubes into 1 setup. It would cost the motor dearly in terms of torque and throttle response (minimal lag), and torque is the reason for my car's modifications. It would also be designed for a larger turbo than my 505 is currently using (a Garrett T25 from a CA18DET Nissan) which would mean more work to fit it.
    Can I assume from your reply Ray, that you are ruling out the possibilty of the exhaust system either causing, or contributing to this problem?
    I think you summed up your problems in your first post. It is probably a combination of the intense heat (constantly expanding and contracting, thin walled tubing (should be approx 3.5mm) and have the turbo braced to the engine) possibly aggravated by some stress in the exhaust system. Now that its broken you may have a hard time repairing it as it will always be weak in this area. The Renault manifold you talk of may not be as bad as you think. In my turbo V6 I use standard 604 manifolds, the crossover pipe is steampipe. The turbo is also supported by a bracket to the rocker cover. On a dyno run the manifolds glow red hot so they are obviously very inefficient (typical 604 hey rambo). But the car still has very good throttle response, minimal lag and makes 150kw at the wheels. These factors probably have more to do with correct turbo sizing. There are no factory turbo cars that I know of that have 4 into 1 extractors. They are however used by performance tuners to extract that little bit extra for people who have deep pockets.

    I suggest you try to find the correct manifold and failing that remake the current one. There is a book called Maximum Boost which has a chapter on designing exhaust manifolds for turbo systems which you may find useful.

    Jarrod

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    The manifold wasn't as expensive as you'd think (although the phrase "you get what you paid for" comes to mind now that it's build quility is in question)
    and the cost was about $600 from memory.
    One aspect of it's construction I failed to mention was that the runners vary in length slightly. I know very little about whether this would have any effect on the integrity of the materials used, except that gases travel like sound so maybe this difference in the length of each runner has placed a greater load on certain areas around the collector (?).
    Repair is not really an option as I wouldn't be comfortable with a bandaid solution potentially causing an engine bay fire (if it somehow broke off completely). Would 3.5mm steel be a minimum standard for wall thickness of each runner, or just a desirable one?

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    The manifold wasn't as expensive as you'd think (Would 3.5mm steel be a minimum standard for wall thickness of each runner, or just a desirable one?
    I have scanned in the chapter on turbo exhaust manifolds. If you send me your email I will send it to you.

    Jarrod

  9. #9
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    505 to the max do u take ur car out in newy on the weekends much ? let me know if you are i really want to have a little look,
    my 505 GTi will be off the road late this year early next year for a conversion of types not to sure what, was thinking engine conversion but if the zdjl turbo conversion works ok i might go that way or supercharge

    are you going to modify the look of the car ? or is it just standard ?

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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    G'day Ben,
    as a rule, I don't go to Newcastle foreshore. My car has a pod straight off the front of the turbo, which as I'm sure you could imagine generates lots of induction noise. It also has somewhat intrusive levels of wastegate chatter. I drive it very, very slowly whenever there is a chance of Police wanting to have a look.
    It's not yet engineered (will be in two weeks or so) so this is a fairly substantial problem.
    If you intend to go 'the whole hog' and spend up on your 505, i'd stick with Peugeot motors. The simple reason being the costs associated with SR20 conversion etc and getting the vehicle recognised as being street legal.
    If you intend to get big power fom your engine, I'd avoid forced induction. My car has responded well to the turbo, but it comes at a cost of both a shortened engine lifespan, and increased running costs (300km from a 55 litre tank of 98RON dammit!).
    If I had another opportunity (or another ten grand) to work a 505 GTi this is what I would spend my money on:
    1. Big cam and increased valvetrain strength and durability
    2. At least 10.5:1 compression and a (mild) port and polish
    3. Full exhaust system inc. decent extractors
    4. Aftermarket ECU
    5. Quad throttle bodies (GTi has a 57mm Throttle body which I think limits HP)
    With a decent bottom end (rebuilt, balanced etc) I reckon this would absolutely hammer, and the engine noise would be awesome. My car was much more mild than what's specified above and made about 160hp. There aren't too many more enjoyable ways to blow s&*tloads of cash.
    As for the question of my car's appearance, it looks like any old 505 GR, except for a GTI front bar and 15 x 6 Superlites. Pretty plain really...

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Tiop's Avatar
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    Sounds interesting never considered NA tunning for the ZDJL engine but maybe it would produce some decent figure and make it a good cruizing car
    supercharger would be good for a cruzing car just for all the torque with a car full of mates

    good to hear your car is running had not heard from you in a while

    Not to self bewarey of 505's that sound mean they just might be
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    How'd it end up looking with the GTi bar and those thin black strips up the side as apposed to the thicker ones??

    Got any pics with the wheels to ?? the are the similar alterations im looking at doing, would love to see how it turned out.

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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    The GTi front bar looks a treat, even though mine has fairly shabby paintwork and an intercooler hanging out the bottom of it. It's actually off an '85 GTi executive, so I'm not sure if it's the same as a regular GTi.
    Straight bolt on job, no hassles and leaves room for an intercooler up to about 550x250x70mm (although only about half of the core gets effective airflow without 'trimming some fat' off the front bar).
    The striping on the front bar is the narrower type, just like the GR/SR 505's have all the way down each side. I think that this might be where the GTi and GTi Executive differ, but don't quote me on that.
    The Superlites will look better when I lower the car, but at the moment the ride height makes them look a bit small. For $1300 with Dunlop LM 702 tyres (195/60/15) they are far from cheap, but unfortunately unless you want to mess around with changing stud patterns you have no other aftermarket options.
    Ben, why supercharge if you want torque? My car makes full torque from 2000-4000rpm (approx) and it's far easier to adjust boost with a turbo. Probably end up costing about the same as a turbo conversion too. Plus you get the really deep, rough exhaust sound, more top end, better fuel economy (depending on S/C choice), and above all, less clutter on the inlet side of the engine bay which is the last thing the GTi needs...

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    this might be where the GTi and GTi Executive differ, but don't quote me on that.
    The Superlites will look better when I lower the car, but at the moment the ride height makes them look a bit small. For $1300 with Dunlop LM 702 tyres (195/60/15) they are far from cheap
    didnt realise the gti bar came out in a fat and thin line varient..

    I do recon the superlites dont look to bad.. how much did they end up weighing? stylisticly, they realy have grown on me tho, all my mates think im nuts. either way.. yeah get your dig camer out, would love to see how it looks.
    Last edited by bowie; 4th April 2005 at 02:07 AM.

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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    I'll post pics of the engine bay and exterior on Thursday or Friday.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Turbo Piping

    Quote Originally Posted by jarrods
    I think you summed up your problems in your first post. It is probably a combination of the intense heat (constantly expanding and contracting, thin walled tubing (should be approx 3.5mm) and have the turbo braced to the engine) possibly aggravated by some stress in the exhaust system. Now that its broken you may have a hard time repairing it as it will always be weak in this area. The Renault manifold you talk of may not be as bad as you think. In my turbo V6 I use standard 604 manifolds, the crossover pipe is steampipe. The turbo is also supported by a bracket to the rocker cover. On a dyno run the manifolds glow red hot so they are obviously very inefficient (typical 604 hey rambo). But the car still has very good throttle response, minimal lag and makes 150kw at the wheels. These factors probably have more to do with correct turbo sizing. There are no factory turbo cars that I know of that have 4 into 1 extractors. They are however used by performance tuners to extract that little bit extra for people who have deep pockets.

    I suggest you try to find the correct manifold and failing that remake the current one. There is a book called Maximum Boost which has a chapter on designing exhaust manifolds for turbo systems which you may find useful.

    Jarrod


    I tend to agree with Jarrod, the exhaust tubing for the turbo setup needs to be thicker than standard exhaust tubing.

    3.5 mm is probably about right, but be warned it much harder to bend ....

    The Jap turbo engines tend to use cast mainfolds close to the exhaust valves then change to pipe at turbo exhaust outlet. Although it probably not practical on the Pug.

  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    It might work out cheaper to import a manifold from a factory Turbo 505. If anyone is really interested, I have a CX manifold with a T3 turbo bolted to it

    It is off a deisel, but no doubt you could bolt it upto a petrol motor, after all, the turbo just blows air into the motor

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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    It might work out cheaper to import a manifold from a factory Turbo 505. If anyone is really interested, I have a CX manifold with a T3 turbo bolted to it

    It is off a deisel, but no doubt you could bolt it upto a petrol motor, after all, the turbo just blows air into the motor

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    The factory turbo 505 manifold wont fit as it a completely different engine.

    Jarrod

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    I still think the factory R21 manifold would be the go.
    Try the R21 turbo Club, they may have ideas about high flow manifolds.
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I still think the factory R21 manifold would be the go.
    Try the R21 turbo Club, they may have ideas about high flow manifolds.
    again.. completely differnt engine.. i dout that the manifold of the N9TE Would Bolt up to the ZDJL . .

    what was the name given to the block of the Turbo Deasil ??

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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    it was an XD3TE according to http://peugeot.mainspot.net/engines.shtml


    so prob not much good either.. does the X indicate its a similar block to the 05/04 XN engine however?

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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    oh good im asleep.. sorry Hong Kong Pugman.. you are right.. the R21 is the same engine as the Gti.. im just a twat..

    dont listen to me everyone..

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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie
    oh good im asleep.. sorry Hong Kong Pugman.. you are right.. the R21 is the same engine as the Gti.. im just a twat..

    dont listen to me everyone..
    Good save Bowie, sitting here this morning reading this and I am thinking I am going mad.
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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    What a save Bowie......

    Is there any chance that it is pure weight of the turbo on the manifold causing damage?? ie when starting/idling the car the engine does shake putting too much strain of the manifold from pure weight??

    Also if there is any chance that it is an exhaust mounting problem why not put in flexi pipe just past the turbo? Same stuff they use on FWD cars to stop cracking of manifolds as the engine moves (forward and back)? Not expensive really.

    I suppose that any one of the problems that it could be that have been highlighted here have the same ending.........

    Repair or Throw

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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    actually thats a very very good point.. and the number one cause of manifold destruco on many FWD turbo buzz box's... i assumed it was soft mounted on to something

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